CQ Transcriptwire

SPEAKERS: JOHN KING, HOST

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES

[*] KING: I’m John King, and this is STATE OF THE UNION.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KING (voice-over): One on one with President Obama.

OBAMA: I don’t think that illegal immigrants should be covered under this health care plan.

KING: Our sit-down interview, the president discusses the signature issues facing the nation, from health care to the economy and the U.S. mission in Afghanistan. And we put your questions to the president.

Then, reaction from the top Republican in Congress, Senate Minority Leader Mitchell McConnell of Kentucky. And analysis from STATE OF THE UNION’s exclusive duo, James Carville and Mary Matalin.

And our “American Dispatch” from Connecticut, where fears of a possible H1N1 flu pandemic have campuses on high alert and vaccine- makers in a rush.

This is the STATE OF THE UNION report for Saturday, September 20th.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: It is eight months to the day since Barack Obama made history. He took office as the 44th president of the United States. From day one, enormous challenges. An economy in collapse. Two difficult wars overseas. The daunting math of matching health care reform and other ambitious campaign promises up against the rising red ink of deficit spending.

On this, day 244 of the Obama presidency, the challenges are just as many and dealing with them complicated by a political climate here in Washington and across the country that has turned raw and contentious. In part, some believe because the president is African- American.

A lot to talk about as I sat down with the president in the Roosevelt Room at the White House.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KING: Mr. President, thank you for joining us.

OBAMA: Great to see you.

KING: I want to begin with the economy. I get out of Washington every week for the show, and we’re in Connecticut and Rhode Island this week. And I knew I was going to be seeing you, so I asked 20 people: “What would you ask if you had the privilege that I have at this moment?” Eighteen of the twenty, eighteen, asked a variation of...

OBAMA: Jobs.

KING: ... where are the jobs? When are they coming back?

OBAMA: Yes. Well, look, the -- this is something that I ask every single one of my economic advisers every single day, because I know that ultimately the measure of an economy is, is it producing jobs that help people support families, send their kids to college? That’s the single most important thing we can do. What we’ve done, I think, in the first eight months is to stop the bleeding. We’ve...

KING: Is the recession over?

OBAMA: Well, you know, I’ll leave that up to the Fed chairman to pronounce whether it’s officially over or not. I think what’s absolutely clear is that -- that the financial markets are working again, that we even saw manufacturing tick up, in terms of production, last month. So all of the signs are that the economy is going to start growing again.

But here’s -- here’s the challenge, that not only are usually jobs figures the last to catch up, they’re the lagging indicator, but the other problem is, we lost so many jobs that making up for those that have already been lost is going to require really high growth rates.

And so what we’re focused right now on is, how can we make sure that businesses are investing again? How can we make sure that certain industries that were really important, like housing, are stabilized? How can we expand our export markets? And that’s part of what the G-20 meeting in Pittsburgh is going to be about, making sure that there’s a more balanced economy.

We can’t go back to the era where the Chinese or the Germans or other countries just are selling everything to us, we’re taking out a bunch of credit card debt or home equity loans, but we’re not selling anything to them.

So that’s how all this is going to fit together. But I want to be clear that probably the jobs picture is not going to improve considerably -- and it could even get a little bit worse -- over the next couple of months. And we’re probably not going to start seeing enough job creation to deal with the -- a rising population until some time next year.

KING: Do you think jobs will not grow, you will not be adding jobs until some time next year, or maybe...

(CROSSTALK)

OBAMA: No, I think -- I think we’ll be adding jobs, but you need 150,000 additional jobs each month just to keep pace with a growing population. So if we’re only adding 50,000 jobs, that’s a great reversal from losing 700,000 jobs early this year, but, you know, it means that we’ve still got a ways to go.

KING: Let’s talk health care. The Senate Finance Committee finally has a proposal before it by the chairman, Max Baucus . It’s getting some criticism from the left, some criticism from the right. I want to get to the details of it in a minute. It’s also getting some important praise from the middle. I want to break down some of the details in a minute. But if the Baucus bill made it to your desk as is, would you sign it? Does it meet your goals?

OBAMA: Well, that’s such a hypothetical, since it won’t get there as is, that I’m not going to answer that question. But can I say that it does meet some broad goals that all the bills that have been introduced meet.

KING: Is it better than the others?

OBAMA: It provides health insurance to people who don’t have it at affordable prices. I’d like to make sure that we’ve got that affordability really buttoned down, because I think that’s one of the most important things, is that if we’re offering people health insurance and we’re saying that people have to get health insurance if it’s affordable, we’ve got to make sure it’s affordable.

We’re helping people who have health insurance with the -- with knowing that, if they’re paying their premiums, they’re actually getting what they pay for, and that has been a huge problem, the people not able to get insurance because of pre-existing conditions, being surprised because some fine print says that they’ve got to pay huge out-of-pocket expenses or they hit a lifetime cap. All of those reforms are in there, and that’s really important.

Deficit neutrality, very important. Bending the cost curve, reducing health care inflation over time, part of the reason that’s so important, there was just a report that came out last week. Kaiser Family Foundation said, if you’ve got health insurance, last year, your premiums went up 5.5 percent, 5.5 percent. This is despite the fact that inflation was negative on everything else.

And that has been true almost every year. Premiums have doubled, gone up over 130 percent over the last 10 years. That’s the direction we’re heading. More and more people are finding that their employers are dropping their coverage, because it’s getting too expensive, so making sure that we’re controlling the long-term costs by improving the delivery systems, all of that’s in the bill.

Now, there are a whole bunch of details that still have to get worked out. I suspect you’ll have one or two questions about them. But what I’ll say is, is that right now I’m pleased that, basically, we’ve got 80 percent agreement, we’ve got to really work on that next 20 percent over the last few weeks.

KING: One of the issues is how to pay for it. And one of the things Chairman Baucus does -- and you have endorsed, at least in concept -- is putting a fee, slapping a fee on these so-called “Cadillac” insurance plans. And the fee would go on the insurance company, not on the individual.

OBAMA: That’s right.

KING: But as you know, many of your allies, Senator Rockefeller, other Democrats, and many union presidents who have helped you in this fight, say, you know what? That insurance company will pass that on to the consumer, and they think it’s a backdoor way potentially of violating your promise during the campaign to not raise taxes, not hurt middle-class Americans, because that will be passed back on through the back door.

OBAMA: Keep in mind that the average insurance plan, I think, is about $13,000, a little -- maybe a little more than that, because of health care inflation. Even the health care plan that members of Congress get is, you know, in that range of the teens. And so people would be, for the most part, completely unaffected by this.

You do have some Cadillac plans -- I mean, you know, the CEOs of Goldman, I think, published what their plans were worth. They were worth $40,000 or something like that. That’s probably leading to...

KING: Would you make sure...

OBAMA: ... some waste...

KING: I hate to interrupt, but would you make sure that -- some of these unions have negotiated pretty good plans, too. Would you...

OBAMA: Oh, absolutely.

KING: ... make sure theirs are carved out, or should some of them be subject to that?

OBAMA: This is a very important issue. I’ve been talking to the unions about it. I’ve been honest with them about it. What I’ve said is, is that the -- we want to make sure that guys are protected, guys and gals who have got a good benefit, that they are protected, but we also want to make sure that we’re using our health dollars wisely.

And I -- I do think that giving a disincentive to insurance companies to offer Cadillac plans that don’t make people healthier is part of the way that we’re going to bring down health care costs for everybody over the long term.

KING: It is not one of the central issues, but it has become one of the emotional flashpoints, and that is coverage of illegal immigrants. The Finance Committee plan is the only one in Congress right now that has specific language that says an illegal immigrant cannot go to one of these new health insurance exchanges. It requires documentation. Would you sign a bill without that documentation? Or is that an adamant red line for you?

OBAMA: Let me be clear. I think that, if I’m not mistaken, almost all of the plans had specific language saying that illegal immigrants would not be covered. The question really was, was the enforcement mechanism strong enough?

Here’s what I’ve said, and I will repeat: I don’t think that illegal immigrants should be covered under this health care plan. There should be a verification mechanism in place. We do that for a whole range of existing social programs. And I think that’s a pretty straightforward principle that will be met.

KING: Mitch McConnell told a conservative group: “We’re winning the health care debate.” What do you think of that?

OBAMA: Well, you know, they -- they were saying they were winning during the election, too.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: Up next, we turn to global challenges, wrestling with sending more U.S. troops to Afghanistan, and a headline from former President Bill Clinton’s trip to North Korea. Much more with President Obama, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Afghanistan is now often referred to as Obama’s war and the strategy and decisions he faces in the coming weeks could well define his presidency. The American people have deep doubts about the mission and some of the president’s fellow Democrats see eerily parallels to Iraq in Afghanistan’s failure to build a more capable army and its government corruption and dysfunction. Defining the mission is perhaps the president’s biggest challenge.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KING: Let me move on to the world stage. You face a very tough decision in the weeks ahead about Afghanistan. Our Pentagon correspondent, Barbara Starr, says she has been told that General McChrystal has finished his report and his recommendation to you, but he has been told, “Don’t call us; we’ll call you. Hold it.”

Are you or someone working for you asking him to sit on that at the moment because of the dicey politics of this?

OBAMA: No, no, no, no. Let -- let me describe the process from start to where we are now. When we came in, I think everybody understood that our Afghanistan strategy was somewhat adrift, despite the extraordinary valor of the young women -- men and women who are -- who are fighting there.

So what we said was, let’s do a soup-to-nuts re-evaluation, focusing on what our original goal was, which was to get Al Qaida, the people who killed 3,000 Americans.

To the extent that our strategy in Afghanistan is serving that goal, then we’re on the right track. If it starts drifting away from that goal, then we may have a problem.

What I also said was, we’ve got an election coming up. I ordered 21,000 troops in to secure that election. But I said, after the election’s over, we’ve got to review it, because we’ve got to figure out, what kind of partner do we have in Afghanistan? Are they willing to make the commitment to build their capacity to secure their own country?

We are in the process of working through that strategy. The only thing I’ve said to my folks is, A, I want an unvarnished assessment, but, B, I don’t want to put the resource question before the strategy question. You know, the -- because there is a natural inclination to say, if I get more, then I can do more. But right now, the question is, the first question is, are we doing the right thing? Are we pursuing the right strategy?

And -- and once I have that clarity from the commanders on the ground, Secretary Gates, my national security adviser, Jim Jones, and others, when we have clarity on that, then the question is, OK, how do we resource it? And that’s -- what I will say to the American public is not going to be driven by the politics of the moment. It’s going to be driven by the fact that, A, my most important job is to keep us safe -- and Al Qaida’s still trying to do us harm -- but, B, every time I sign an order, you know, I’m answerable to the parents of those young men and women who I’m sending over there, and I want to make sure that it’s for the right reason.

KING: On that point, about a month before the election, you promised a re-focused national security strategy. And you said, quote, “We will kill bin Laden. We will crush Al Qaida.” As president, commander-in-chief, are you finding it’s harder to find him than you thought it might have been as a candidate?

OBAMA: Oh, I think as a candidate I knew I was -- it was going to be hard. I don’t doubt the interest and the desire of the previous administration to find him and kill him. But I do think that, if we have a overarching strategy that reminds us every day that that’s our focus, that we have a better chance of capturing and killing him and certainly keeping Al Qaida on the run than if we start drifting into a whole bunch of other missions that really aren’t related to what is our essential strategic problem and rationale for being there.

KING: It is a small number, but a growing number of Democrats in the Congress who say they want a timeline, they want a time limit on U.S. troop commitments in Afghanistan. You thought that was a good idea when it came to Iraq. Is it a good idea for Afghanistan?

OBAMA: You know, I think that what we have to do is get the right strategy, and then I think we’ve got to have some clear benchmarks, matrix of progress. That’s part of the reason why I said, even after six months, I wanted us to re-evaluate. You know...

(CROSSTALK)

KING: What would you say to the American who says you’ve been president for eight months, why are you still looking for a strategy?

OBAMA: Well, no, no, no. Keep in mind that we have a -- we put a strategy in place, clarified our goals, but what the election has shown, as well as changing circumstances in Pakistan, is that, you know, this is going to be a very difficult operation, and we’ve got to make sure that we’re constantly refining it to keep our focus on what our primary goals are.

KING: Do you think President Karzai stole the election?

OBAMA: You know, I don’t think that, you know, I’m going to make comments on the election until after everything has been certified. I think there is no doubt that there were reports of fraud out there that at first glance look pretty serious. They’re being investigated. They’re going through the -- the normal processes.

How much fraud took place and whether that had a substantial effect on the results of the election, I think that is something that we’re going to have to wait and see in the next few weeks.

KING: A couple other quick security questions, and then I want to bring it back home. You recently had lunch with President Clinton. He went to North Korea to help facilitate the release of those American journalists. What is the most interesting thing he told you about Kim Jong-il?

OBAMA: You know, I think President Clinton’s assessment was that he’s -- he’s pretty healthy and in control. And that’s important to know, because we don’t have a lot of interaction with the North Koreans. And, you know, President Clinton had a chance to see him close up and have conversations with him.

I won’t go into any more details than that. But there’s no doubt that this is somebody who, you know, I think for a while people thought was slipping away. He’s reasserted himself. It does appear that he’s concerned about -- he was more concerned about succession when he was -- succession when he was sick, maybe less so now that he’s well.

But our -- but our main focus on North Korea -- and I’m very -- actually, this is a success story so far, and that is that we have been able to hold together a coalition that includes the Chinese and the Russians to really apply some of the toughest sanctions we’ve seen, and it’s having an impact.

OBAMA: And I think that North Korea is saying to itself, you know, we can’t just bang our spoon on the table and somehow think that the world is going to react positively. We’ve got to start behaving responsibly. So hopefully, we’ll start seeing some progress on that front.

KING: Seven former directors of central intelligence have sent you a letter saying, please invoke your authority to stop the attorney general’s investigation of the Bush-era interrogation tactics. Will you do that?

OBAMA: You know, first of all, I respect all seven of them. And as importantly or more importantly, I have absolute respect and have reliance upon a robust CIA.

And I’ve said before, I want to look forward and not backwards on this issue. On the other hand, I’ve also said nobody is above the law. And I don’t want to start getting into the business of squelching, you know, investigations that are being conducted.

Now, it’s not a criminal investigation as yet, my understanding. I trust career prosecutors to be judicious. I’ve made clear both publicly and privately that I have no interest in witch hunts. But, ultimately, the law is the law, and we don’t go around sort of picking and choosing how we approach it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: Ahead, angry outbursts and disturbing images in recent weeks have some on the left suggesting racism motivates some Obama critics. Does the president see race as the issue? I’ll ask him next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: How much, if at all, does our first African-American president believe race motivates his critics? Back to our conversation in the Roosevelt Room.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KING: It’s a tough business, as you know. But in recent weeks, people have raised some pretty serious questions, the big rally in town, signs talking about Afro-socialism (ph), swastikas with your name and your picture on them, “you lie” shouted at you during a nationally televised addressed, and former President Carter says he sees racism in some of this. Do you?

OBAMA: You know, as I’ve said in the past, you know, are there people out there who don’t like me because of race? I’m sure there are. That’s not the overriding issue here. I think there are people who are anti-government.

I think that there are -- there has been a longstanding debate in this country that is usually that much more fierce during times of transition or when presidents are trying to bring about big changes.

I mean, the things that were said about FDR are pretty similar to the things that were said about me, that he was a communist, he was a socialist. Things that were said about Ronald Reagan when he was trying to reverse some of the New Deal programs, you know, were -- were pretty vicious, as well.

The only thing I’d just hope is, is that people -- you know, I think we can have a strong disagreement, passionate disagreements about issues without -- without resorting to name-calling. We can maintain civility. We can give other people the benefit of the doubt that -- that they want what is best for this country.

KING: But the speaker says it reminds her of the hateful anti- gay language in San Francisco that led to deadly violence. Jim Clyburn, who’s the highest-ranking African-American in Congress, says he thinks people are trying to de-legitimize you. Did you see it as that worrisome?

OBAMA: You know, I’ve got to tell you that, as I said before, you know, yelling at politicians is as American as apple pie. I mean, that’s -- that’s in our DNA. We -- I said this in the speech to the joint session, that we have a long tradition of being skeptical of government.

I do think that it’s important for us, again, to remind ourselves that all of us are Americans who love this country. I think it’s important not to exaggerate or provide just rank misinformation about each other.

You know, I’m amused. I can’t tell you how many foreign leaders who are heads of center-right governments say to me, I don’t understand why people would call you socialist, in my country, you’d be considered a conservative.

You know, and the other thing I’ve got to say is, is that I think it’s important for the media -- you know, not to do any media-bashing here -- to recognize that right now, in this 24-hour news cycle, the easiest way to get on CNN or FOX or any of the other stations -- MSNBC -- is to just say something rude and outrageous.

If you’re civil, and polite, and you’re sensible, and you don’t exaggerate the -- the bad things about your opponent, and, you know, you might maybe get on one of the Sunday morning shows, but -- but you’re not going to -- you’re not going to be on the loop.

And, you know, part of what I’d like to see is -- is all of us reward decency and civility in our political discourse. That doesn’t mean you can’t be passionate, and that doesn’t mean that you can’t speak your mind. But I think we can all sort of take a step back here and remind ourselves who we are as a people.

KING: I’m over my time. If I can, I want to ask you one question as a parent, not as a president. I was on a college campus this week and at a lab where they’re trying to make an H1N1 vaccine. As a parent with two daughters in school, how are you dealing with this? And does the Obama family plan include a vaccine for you?

OBAMA: Well, the -- here’s the Obama family plan, is to call up my HHS secretary, Kathleen Sebelius , and my CDC director and just ask them, what’s your recommendation? And whatever they tell me to do, I will do.

My understanding at this point is that the high-risk populations are going to be first with the vaccine, and that means not only health care workers, but particularly children with underlying neurological vulnerabilities. And so we’ve got to make sure that those vaccines go to them first.

OBAMA: I’m assuming -- and pregnant women, by the way -- after that, I think you’re looking at kids, and so Malia and Sasha would fall into that category. I suspect that I may come fairly far down the line, so we’re not going to -- here’s what I guarantee you. We want to get vaccinated. We think it’s the right thing to do. We will stand in line like everybody else. And when folks say it’s our turn, that’s when we’ll get it.

KING: Mr. President, thank you for your time.

OBAMA: Thank you so much.

KING: Thank you.

OBAMA: Appreciated it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: Joining us now to offer his perspective on health care, Afghanistan, and more, is the top Republican in Congress, the Senate minority leader, Mitchell McConnell of Kentucky. Senator McConnell, let me ask you an open-ended question. You just listened to 20 minutes there of the president of the United States. What most jumped out at you?

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R), KENTUCKY: Well, I certainly agree with the president and disagree with President Carter that this great national debate we’re having right now has anything whatsoever to do with race. The American people are concerned when they see the government running banks and insurance companies and car companies and now want to, in effect, take over almost 20 percent of our economy, our health care. These are the kinds of things about which there ought to be a very spirited debate and we’re in the process of having that here in this country.

KING: Well, I want you to listen, not to the president, but I want you to listen to your own voice. You spoke here in Washington on Friday to a conservative gathering about the health care debate and you voiced quiet confidence about the Republican position. Let’s listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCCONNELL: We’re seeing it today in the debate over health care. Ordinary Americans speaking their minds, dismissed and ridiculed by people in power. The reason they are doing this is clear, because we’re winning the argument.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Define “winning” for me. Is winning blocking the Democratic plans and ending this year without a health care reform bill reaching the president’s desk?

MCCONNELL: No, winning is stopping and starting over and getting it right. I don’t know anybody in my Republican conference in the Senate who’s in favor of doing nothing on health care. We obviously have a cost problem and we have an access problem.

But there’s a very big difference about whether or not it’s appropriate to have a major rewrite of about one sixth of our economy in the process. My members just don’t think that’s the right way to go. We want to fix the health care system, but we don’t want to do or have a $1 trillion over 10-year cut in Medicare, not to make Medicare more sustainable, but to start a new program for others.

We don’t think it’s a good idea to raise taxes on small businesses and on individuals in the heart of a recession. There are some serious differences about what ought to be done.

KING: I saw your speech just before I went over to see the president. So I asked him about it. Listen to this exchange.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Mitchell McConnell told the conservative group, we’re winning the health care debate. What do you think of that?

OBAMA: Well, you know, they were saying they were winning during the election too.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: A confident president there, saying he will get health care. He also said in an interview with Univision that’s airing this morning that he would love Republican votes, but I don’t count on them. I don’t count on them. Mr. Leader, let me ask you, if they go forward and they do this with all Democrats, what does that do to the environment down the road? Some Republicans have said well then don’t expect our cooperation on financial reform. Don’t expect our cooperation on Afghanistan. Is this one issue health care, or could it poison the well?

MCCONNELL: Look, it’s not about winning or losing, it’s not about the president, it’s about American health care and getting it right. And if they try to use this legislative loophole called reconciliation, what they’ll be doing, in effect, is jamming through a proposal to rewrite the economy with about 24 hours of debate.

Basically, a legislative loophole to do a massive rewrite of one sixth of our economy. I think that that will produce a very, very severe reaction among the American people, who are already, according to the Gallup poll, not in favor of the direction we’re taking on this very important issue.

KING: Help me understand if there’s a gap between the audience in the sense that you say here, it’s not about winning or losing, but you were very clear to that conservative group, we’re winning the argument.

MCCONNELL: Well, by winning, the definition of winning is to stop and start over and do it right. Things like targeting junk lawsuits against doctors and hospitals. Things like equalizing the tax code so that individual purchases of health insurance get the same tax deduction that corporations do. Things like incentivizing wellness programs that encourage people to do something about smoking, about being overweight, about high cholesterol, high blood pressure, lack of exercise. There are plenty of things we could do without having the government step in and in effect, try to take over one sixth of our economy.

KING: Let me move you to the world stage. One of the things that struck me is when I asked the president about Afghanistan, our Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr says General McChrystal’s ready to send his recommendation, his report to the president, but he has been told just wait a little bit, they want to discuss some other things first. And the president said, he explained that and said well, we have this big strategy we have to work through, other questions first about the election, about the political situation, and I don’t want to put the resource question ahead of those other things. The president’s answer make sense to you on that?

MCCONNELL: Well, I mean the president enjoys very strong support among Republicans in the Senate for what he’s doing in Afghanistan. We are, however, disturbed by reports from your network, CNN, that he was, in effect, asking General McChrystal to delay his recommendation.

We think it is time to receive the recommendation. We would like to see General McChrystal and General Petraeus come up to Congress, like they did during the Iraq surge and give us the information about what they’re recommending.

We think the time for decision is now. As Senator McCain has pointed out, when you delay a decision like this, you, arguably, maybe, unnecessarily endanger the lives of our soldiers. If we need to change strategy, if we need to increase the troop strength there, I think the president will enjoy a lot of support among Senate Republicans.

KING: Well, let me ask you then, to be crystal clear. Democrats raise a lot of questions during the Iraq war there were politics creeping in to the decisions being made in the Bush White House. If General McChrystal has his recommendation ready, but you don’t have it yet as the Republican leader, the Democrats who run key committees in Congress don’t have it yet, is that politics or is that an administration just taking its time to make some wise adjustments?

MCCONNELL: Well as I indicated, I think the president ought to move on with the decision. The war continues. He enjoys widespread support among Senate Republicans. We’re looking forward to hearing publicly what General McChrystal has to say and what the president’s going to recommend. I think the sooner he can make that decision, the better.

KING: And do you believe, sir, that we need more troops in Afghanistan?

MCCONNELL: I think he ought to rely on the -- look, General Petraeus did a great job with the surge in Iraq. I think he knows what he’s doing. General McChrystal is a part of that. We have a lot of confidence in those two generals. I think the president does as well. I think he ought to follow his advice.

KING: I’ve asked you every time you’ve been on this program because you said at the beginning, you hope for a bipartisan relationship with the president, and you’ve said several times since, you don’t think you really have one. This is eight months since he took office. Is it any better, sir, than the last time we spoke?

MCCONNELL: Well, I like the president personally a lot. I do think he’s governing on the domestic side, governing very much on the left. I was hoping he would govern as he campaigned, which was in the center. If he were in the center on most of these issues, I think he would be enjoying a lot more Republican support than he’s getting right now, which at least on the health care debate at the moment is none.

KING: If they continue on their course, we’re about out of time, but it’s Sunday, a lot of people are making football predictions. I would like you to make a health care prediction for me today. Will the Democrats, maybe you won’t like it, but will they get a bill to President Obama’s desk this year?

MCCONNELL: I hate to make predictions. This is not a game, this is a serious matter. We’re dealing with America’s health care. We really need to get it right and we’ll be glad to work with the administration to get the right outcome.

KING: Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell . As always sir, we appreciate your time here on “State of the Union.”

MCCONNELL: Thank you, John.

KING: Take care, senator. And up next, James Carville and Mary Matalin offer their take on the Obama interview, the state of the Republican Party and more.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Joining me now -- and you’ll only see them together right here on “State of the Union,” Democratic strategist...

(LAUGHTER)

... and CNN political contributor James Carville and Republican strategist and CNN political contributor, Mary Matalin. I wish -- I wish we could show our viewers you two during the breaks, but maybe that’s another show for another time.

(CROSSTALK)

CARVILLE: ... outtakes.

(LAUGHTER)

KING: Listen, both of you will be back at 11 o’clock. We’re going to spend extended time breaking down the president’s interview. We only have a couple of minutes here this morning, but, Mary, let me start with you first.

What jumped out most at you? He talked about a lot of issues. What caught your attention?

MATALIN: Exactly that, that the purpose of celebrity Sunday was to telescope this message on health care. And the events of the whole last week, the tactics have been designed to telescope a message on health care, which is not enjoying any support and is on life-support, as a matter of fact. It wasn’t a telescope; it was a kaleidoscope.

But, importantly and rightly and to the positive, what the president had to say on Afghanistan was very important, to put the strategy before resources, to reassert the elemental strategy, which is to crush Al Qaida, and to look at conditions on the ground, increasingly -- increasing corruption in the government, but increasing effectiveness of the Pakistanis.

So I think he’s right on Afghanistan. McConnell’s right; we want that recommendation, but he’s -- you know, to his positive, he did good on Afghanistan.

CARVILLE: Well, yes. I mean, A, clear holster; B, pull trigger. And I think they’re trying to clear the holster before they decide what kind of trigger they’re going to pull in Afghanistan. And Mary’s exactly right. The situation in Pakistan is much improved. The situation in Afghanistan has deteriorated somewhat.

And it’s a very difficult thing, because the government in Kabul doesn’t offer much hope as we go through this election process.

So I think that it’s a pretty smart thing to wait for General McChrystal’s recommendation until they can try to get the elements of the strategy in place.

I thought -- I think that they’re making some pretty good progress here on health care. I think that the bill that came out of the Baucus committee -- I think the sixth committee that’s reported a favorable bill. And I detect a growing sense of Democratic can-do- ness on this issue on the Hill. It’s still a long, long way to go. But I think people are feeling a little bit better today than they did at the beginning.

An international audience this hour, so let me stay on Afghanistan for a minute. The wait -- you’ve been around presidents and vice presidents making these tough decisions. His own party, in public opinion polling and in Congress, is increasingly against the mission in Afghanistan.

You can say this isn’t about politics, but he is aware of that. How does it creep into the decision-making process, when you know you’re in a tough political box?

MATALIN: Well, it crept into his language. He uses their buzz words that they like, “benchmarks” and “We were adrift,” and so he’s using those political sops (ph).

But it cannot. He is the commander in chief, and the fall of Afghanistan is an invitation to the kind of up-creep or rise in terrorism that brought us to this point in the first place.

He’s also done other things that have been politically unpalatable for him. He’s brought back some of the things he objected to like warrantless wiretaps.

He has to do better at the CIA thing. These CIA chiefs -- that letter you talked about -- have given him an opening to pull back on that ridiculous Holder backward-looking investigation.

So he -- it sounds like, and if it’s true and it’s not just words, that he has his commander in chief hat more squarely on his head.

KING: Different as a senator -- when he didn’t like the Iraq war, he was all for timelines. As a president, when you’re the commander in chief, he says, let’s do benchmarks and let’s talk to the Congress. But that word “timeline,” when you’re the president...

(CROSSTALK)

CARVILLE: Yes. We don’t -- we don’t know what they’re going to come up with. Understand, the Afghanistan strategy is -- it’s 7 1/2 years. It’s under very serious review here. So I don’t want to preempt the president. He may come out and he may very well be in favor of timelines.

One of the things that you better prepare for -- a lot of people say we -- there are certain elements of the Taliban that we should negotiate with. Hey, that’s going to be pretty hard for the public to digest. You can imagine what people will say about that. But that’s going to be one of the other things on the table.

It -- there are a lot of other players in that region. This election was, kindly put, in some sense, a fiasco. And there’s a lot of hard decisions to make.

And a very, very, very senior Democratic House member told me that the Afghanistan vote was the hardest thing -- the previous one, to get the funds for the war -- is the hardest one they’ve had to round up before. This is going to be a very tough, one depending on the direction the president goes. And I don’t know which direction he’s going.

KING: Time-out -- out of time. James and Mary will be back at 11 o’clock. They have much more to say, as you can see, so stay with us and watch it.

Up next, the growing challenge of containing the H1N1 flu virus. We’ll take you to a campus on high alert and to a lab that hopes to win government approval for its version of an H1N1 vaccine.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: When a parent drops off a child at college, the usual worries are adjusting to dorm life or keeping up the grades.

KING: This fall, add in fear of the H1N1 flu virus and the questions about how the government and schools like the University of Connecticut are preparing. Let’s take a look at some of the numbers across the country.

Forty-eight thousand, just shy of that, probable H1N1 cases already in the United States in 2009. Nearly 300,000, 296,000 and counting, H1N1 cases confirmed worldwide. The United States government has ordered 195 million doses of the H1N1 vaccine. So in our “American Dispatch” this week from Connecticut, two glimpses at the H1N1, from a nervous campus and a high-tech lab that wants a big role in the global fight against the virus.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KING (voice-over): The transition of summer to fall is one of New England’s great treats. Mid-September, usually a peaceful break before the worries of winter. Usually.

An early flu season and fears of a possible H1N1 flu pandemic has college campuses across the country on alert. So far so good is the early assessment at the University of Connecticut. One confirmed and two probable cases two weeks into the school year.

There are warnings, advice, and hand sanitizer everywhere, yet Director of Student Health Services Mike Kurland assumes his luck will eventually run out.

MIKE KURLAND, UCONN STUDENT HEALTH DIR.: We have approximately 20,000 students here in Storrs. The amount that we’ll see is the unknown. So we’re making preparations for whatever might happen, but we do anticipate an outbreak of H1N1 virus or influenza-like illness.

KING: Constant calls with state and federal officials. Constant preparation.

KURLAND: We purchased large numbers of supplies, 15,000 surgical masks for patients who might be infected, 28,000 doses of Advil, 28,000 doses of Tylenol, 10,000 fever thermometers, thousands of hand sanitizer bottles.

KING: The seasonal flu shot is available for free, but like everyone else, UConn is in a long line waiting for the H1N1 vaccine.

KURLAND: All we know is that distribution will begin in October at some point. We have put in for 20,000 doses. There will be a small amount initially and then each week more will come through.

KING (on camera): Is it frustrating at all that you have a ballpark date, but you don’t have a date?

KURLAND: It’s very frustrating.

KING (voice-over): In this lab, 45 miles from the UConn campus, tests on a seasonal flu vaccine awaiting federal government approval, and in this refrigerator, an H1N1 vaccine its makers hope is on the market soon.

CLIFTON MCPHERSON, PROTEIN SCIENCES QUALITY CONTROL DIR.: This is a sample of what was actually sent to Australia for the clinical trial. It’s just one of the remain -- the vials that was here for testing.

We’re going to be starting production again next week of H1N1 so we can ramp up very fast.

KING: Protein Sciences Quality Control Director Clifton McPherson says the process here is different than most influenza vaccines. Traditional flu shots are made using eggs infected with the virus. Protein Sciences splices protein from the virus into caterpillar cells.

MCPHERSON: So we never have to handle live flu virus. We use the insect cells basically as protein factories and then we purify the protein from the insect cells, and that purified protein is then our vaccine.

KING: CEO Dan Adams says the Australian trials are going extremely well, that he’s negotiating to sell H1N1 vaccines to Australia, China, South Korea, Mexico, and others.

DANIEL ADAMS, PROTEIN SCIENCES PRESIDENT: And so each one of those countries is free to approve our vaccine based on their own standards and...

KING: But in the United States...

ADAMS: We’re not a licensed manufacturer yet.

We definitely are plan B.

KING: Plan B because unless the FDA granted Protein Sciences emergency authority to market here in the United States, it could be months or longer before Washington passes judgment on the safety and effectiveness of this particular H1N1 vaccine.

ADAMS: When you’re talking about the U.S. government and the FDA, you really don’t want to do any harm. That’s your first rule. So they’re looking at safety. We certainly would like to see them move faster. I think the HHS is in many ways overwhelmed by the task of evaluating the safety and effectiveness of various H1N1 vaccines.

Again, you don’t want to do harm. (END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: As you know, one of our goals is to get out of Washington as often as we can. We’ve traveled to 36 states including Connecticut, Texas, Oregon, and West Virginia. Where should we go next? You can e-mail us at stateoftheunion@cnn.com, tell us why we should come to your community.

We’re going to say good-bye now to our international audience for this hour. But up next, for viewers here in the United States, Howie Kurtz and his “RELIABLE SOURCES” look at the press’s role in the debate over race and politics.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: I’m John King, and this is STATE OF THE UNION.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KING (voice-over): Is racism fueling protests against President Obama? As journalists look for an answer, can the media as a whole strike the right tone on an issue that’s way beyond black and white?

Plus, from Kanye West to Joe Wilson , there is an art to publicly saying you’re sorry, but is it right to give so much air time to those admitting they’re wrong.

In this hour of STATE OF THE UNION, Howard Kurtz, as always, breaks it down with his “RELIABLE SOURCES.”

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HOWARD KURTZ, HOST, “RELIABLE SOURCES”: At first there were just whispers, as the ugly rhetoric ratcheted up at town hall meetings as some people showed up with guns, and as a South Carolina congressman shouted “liar” at the president, there was muted speculation in the media that maybe, just maybe, race had something to do with it.

But then Maureen Dowd wrote in her New York Times column last weekend that she heard Joe Wilson ’s outburst as “you lie, boy,” and concluding some people just can’t believe a black man is president and will never accept it.

And there it was, race was now on the media’s front burner. Jimmy Carter promptly turned up the heat, telling Brian Williams that an overwhelming portion of the animosity toward the current president is based on the fact that he is a black man. That’s all it took for the media’s racism debate to reach full boil.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MATT LAUER, HOST, “TODAY “: Is opposition to President Obama and many of his plans fueled by racism?

ED ROLLINS, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: And I think to basically blame any opposition at this point on racism is just absurd. LAURA INGRAHAM, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: So we can’t really speak out without being called racists.

ROLAND MARTIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: We hear people -- Glenn Beck call the president hating white culture. There are people who are playing into other’s racial fears.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KURTZ: Obama responded this morning on five Sunday programs includes right here on “State of the Union,” part of an unprecedented presidential PR blitz. We’ll get to this in a moment.

So are the pundits and the press inflaming this debate about race? Joining us now to talk about that and the president’s extraordinary television offensive this morning, in Tampa, Eric Deggans, TV and media critic for the “St. Petersburg Times”. Here in Washington, Chris Cillizza, White House correspondent for “The Washington Post” who writes the online column “The Fix.” And Amy Holmes, political analyst and guest co-host of WNYC’s “The Takeaway.”

Eric Deggans, should the media be devoting all of this time and energy to explaining or examining or exploring whether some of Obama’s critics are, in fact, motivated by racism?

ERIC DEGGANS, ST. PETERSBURG TIMES: I think it’s an appropriate subject just because for a long time people who have been covering these rallies, covering these protests, have an sense that there’s an undercurrent of something that goes beyond just opposing the president politically.

And there’s been an effort to try and explain that. Why is there such visceral hatred for what Obama’s trying to do among the certain core, a certain percentage of people who are at these rallies and then we found that these weird e-mails pop up of photos of Obama looking like a tribesman, you know, weird racial jokes that seem to be passed along by e-mail by some people who oppose him. So we’re trying to explain that, and I think it makes sense to try.

KURTZ: Some of that, of course, may come from the fringes. Amy Holmes, is there a danger that journalists are perhaps insinuating or suggesting or implying that many of Obama’s critics must be motivated by racism?

AMY HOLMES, POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I think that’s the key word, isn’t it, Howie? It’s many or an overwhelming portion. Of course there will be fringers. There will be people who have ugly motivations, who say and think ugly things. I mean you can talk about George Bush and jug ears and all of the cartoons about that. I think though where it becomes problematic is when it goes from liberal columnists and bloggers into the news pages. And for example, the “Washington Post” had a front page story talking about is race to play in the opposition to President Obama and with very little evidence frankly. And his numbers went down among Independents who went for him, to vote for him. So do these people all of a sudden become racists?

KURTZ: Chris, I want to play for you some of what the president had to say this morning on several networks as he made the rounds. And he wanted to talk about health care and Afghanistan. This question of race came up in each interview. Let’s roll that tape.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Former President Carter says he sees racism in some of this. Do you?

OBAMA: You know, as I’ve said in the past, are there people out there who don’t like me because of race? I’m sure there are.

GEORGE STEPHANOPOLOUS, ABC NEWS ANCHOR: Does it frustrate you when your own supporters see racism when you don’t think it exists?

OBAMA: Well, look, I think that race is such a volatile issue.

DAVID GREGORY, NBC NEWS ANCHOR: Do you agree with that?

OBAMA: No. Look, I said during the campaign, are there some people who still think through the prism of race when it comes to evaluating me and my candidacy? Absolutely.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KURTZ: This president, this White House clearly do not want to engage on this subject. But if that’s any indication that journalists are not willing to let the subject drop.

CHRIS CILLIZZA, WASHINGTON POST: You know, Howie, I think that the White House in some ways made a deal with the devil. Of course that paints people like us as the devil, but they made a deal with the devil with these five sitdowns on Sunday because they had to know that in the battle between race and healthcare, that is not a fair fight when it comes to the media.

The media is absolutely entranced with the story of race. It is so much a part of the nation’s history. It is such an issue that drives ratings, that drives interest, that drives readers that it is going to get more attention than health care.

I think their hope was that health care eventually, that that message would also get out there. But worth noting, on Friday the networks were allowed to release one clip from the interviews. What is that one clip for all five? Race.

KURTZ: It was about race. That’s what they found was most newsworthy or more novel than repeating the same message on healthcare. But come back to Eric Deggans, you wrote the other day about a classic strategy here of painting people of color as exotic, dangerous outsiders. So are you as a journalist hurling this charge against some, I emphasize some, of the president’s critics? DEGGANS: I think it’s obvious in the way that some of the arguments have evolved, but I wanted to talk about a couple of things. First, I really think that some people are upset whenever race is discussed because it becomes this blowtorch that obliterates debate. And I think one of the things that journalists have struggled with is trying to put some perspective on this. How do we talk about the idea that racism may motivate a portion of people who are opposed to Obama?

Even President Carter said the most vehement opponents of Obama are the people who he thinks are motivated by race. And then all of a sudden it becomes everybody who opposes Obama which is not even what President Carter said.

(CROSSTALK)

DEGGANS: And one of the things -- and one of the other points I want to make is I think people of color have to deal with race a lot in their lives, but because President Obama is our first black president, now white people have to think about color a lot more often than they are used to and I think that makes people uncomfortable as well. We’re seeing all of these dynamics come out in coverage and how people are reacting to the coverage.

HOLMES: As a matter of fact, President Carter said that he thought an extraordinary amount of this was motivated by race, but again, we look at the polling data with the president and people who supported him initially now are starting to fall away. And I don’t think necessarily racism can explain that.

KURTZ: So are the media over-emphasizing this --

HOLMES: That’s exactly my point.

KURTZ: It is not just about Barack Obama . Look, Rush Limbaugh the other day took this incident on a bus in St. Louis, where a bunch of black kids beat up a white kid and said, this is what happens in Obama’s America. A lot of people are throwing around this race question.

HOLMES: As Chris mentioned and we’ve discussed a lot that the media loves the race story. It’s easy. It’s a way to paint some people as victims and some people as predators. But when we look at the issue of Obama’s agenda, I think it is a lot more complicated. I sent you a blog I wrote for CNN when Obama signs a stimulus bill. He was by himself. He personalized the issue. So it’s not necessarily surprising that the opposition to the agenda has becomes personal.

CILLIZZA: Just quickly, this is to Eric’s point. I think that covering race is so difficult especially on television but in print as well because it is such a complex issue. There is so much going on there, it’s hard to contextualize what we struggle with some time. Let’s say you have 30 column inches or you have a five-minute show. It is tough to say let’s deal with race in America and how it relates to the first African-American president. That’s a very tough topic to cover in a short period of time. It necessarily gets drilled down.

HOLMES: But it is one that is like candlelight to the media flies who want to buzz all around.

CILLIZZA: Very true.

KURTZ: Well my two cents is the president told NBC the media loved to have a conversation about race and I agree with that. You take any story, it could be Jeremiah Wright, it could be Henry Louis Gates, it could be the Duke rape case. And once you inject race into that as the media sometimes have no choice to do, but sometimes love to do, it’s like pumping steroids into an ordinary story and it makes it live on for weeks and weeks and months and months.

A white Harvard professor gets arrested in a dust up with a police or a misunderstanding with a police officer in Cambridge, it’s a two-paragraph story. It happens to a black professor, particularly a prominent one like Gates, and we all jump on it.

I want to come back now to this -- to say it’s unusual really understates it. The president going on five Sunday shows this morning, all those interviews taped back-to-back at the White House on Friday. Here’s what some in the media have to say about that presidential blitz.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN ROBERTS, CNN ANCHOR: Is he diluting his message here by doing so many interviews with so many different people?

JAKE TAPPER, ABC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: The White House said they would be happy to deny all of ABC News interview requests for the president for the rest of the year. They were joking, I think.

BARBARA WALTERS, ABC HOST: President Obama, if you’re doing everyone, do us!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: Blatantly. Eric Deggans, you’re a television critic. Is there too much Obama all the time?

DEGGANS: Oh, great. You’re going to have me comment after that comment? Well, you know, Obama’s doing -- he’s leveraging the biggest weapon in his arsenal obviously which is his own personal charisma and the fact that people seem to like him even when they oppose his policies.

And I think people who initially complained that maybe he was not living up to his idea of transparency would have a hard time making that argument given how much he’s been in front of the press. He’s doing what he feels he needs to do. We’ll see in the days and weeks to come whether this has the effect. Certainly the speech that he gave to Congress, to the joint session of Congress, seemed to give him a bit of a bounce and seemed to make people give a second look at some of the policies he’s trying to advocate. So maybe this makes a certain kind of sense.

KURTZ: Well, but he followed that with another appearance, his third since the election on “60 Minutes,” CNBC interview, now the five Sundays interviews and then tomorrow he’s going on David Letterman. The president has never gone on David Letterman’s show. It would be a big event. I think it’s like he already did Leno, now he’s doing Letterman, so does it lose his punch, Chris?

CILLIZZA: I do think it does lose its punch a little bit for exactly the reason you said, Howie. It’s less of a big deal when it happens every week. That’s just the simple reality. That said, this White House believes strongly and learned it, they think, in the campaign, that they need to put as Eric pointed out, their best salesman out there in all times in every medium so that there are people who shockingly don’t watch CNN who may watch “The Late Show” or Leno or Univision and they want to make sure that they’re reaching all those mediums.

CILLIZZA: So they figure not everyone, except for a few of us, are watching all five of these things. And they’re not going to think he’s overexposed.

HOLMES: But here’s -- but here’s the problem, is that he can -- he can do one show and get coverage on all the rest of them.

KURTZ: Right, we all replay the clips.

HOLMES: And Mary Matalin, our friend and colleague in the green room just told me, you know, look, they want you to periscope on their issue, which is health, and what they’ve gotten is a kaleidoscope.

So what are the clips coming out of all these interviews?

We talked about race. We talked about...

(CROSSTALK)

KURTZ: Yes, well, I looked -- because I looked at the transcripts, and he didn’t really have much new to say about health care; therefore I don’t think that’s going to be the headline in tomorrow’s story.

But one last question to you, Amy Holmes. Chris says he’s using every medium -- not Fox News, “Fox New Sunday” pointedly excluded from this round-robin, and host Chris Wallace saying that they were a bunch of crybabies at the White House.

HOLMES: I -- yes, I saw that.

KURTZ: Was that a misstep on the White House part, to, kind of, stick it to Fox?

HOLMES: Well, I think it was a misstep to stick it to Fox, but also to stick it to the people who watch Fox, and these are people that I think the president -- he said he wants to reach out to all Americans. Well, you know what? Fox viewers are Americans, too.

KURTZ: All right. Let me get a break here. And when we come back, the ACORN uproar. Fox News jumps all over those undercover videos showing ACORN employees trying to help a phony pimp and his phony prostitute.

Were the rest of the media late to this burgeoning scandal?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KURTZ: The ACORN scandal began 10 days ago with hidden camera video shot not by journalists but by two conservative activists. And this was nothing short of outrageous, as staffers for the community organizing group gave an inquiring couple advice and encouragement on how to hide the fact that they were supposedly bringing in underaged girls to set up a brothel.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMES O’KEEFE, CONSERVATIVE ACTIVIST: My girlfriend’s a prostitute.

(UNKNOWN): Your business is a performing artist...

HANNAH GILES, CONSERVATIVE ACTIVIST: A performing artist?

(UNKNOWN): ... which you are, OK? So you’re not lying -- a little play on words.

(CROSSTALK)

GILES: ... my ego.

(UNKNOWN): You’re a performing artist, OK? So stop saying “prostitute.”

O’KEEFE: Got it.

(UNKNOWN): OK.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KURTZ: ACORN, which was hired by the Obama campaign has long been a target for the right, and Fox News beat the drums on this story day after day.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(UNKNOWN): There is new undercover video showing another ACORN Worker offering to help a pimp and his prostitute.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GLENN BECK, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: ACORN, the people who are sitting there and saying, yes, don’t worry about those 13-year-olds that are being used as hookers! It’s corrupt.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: This is a Fox News alert. The massive scandal involving ACORN continues to spread tonight. (END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(UNKNOWN): There is new and big trouble for ACORN.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KURTZ: But much of the mainstream media was well behind on this story. CNN also jumped on the budding scandal 10 days ago, though not with anything approaching Fox’s intensity.

But it took five days to hit the CBS “Evening News” and six days to be reported by ABC’s “World News,” NBC “Nightly News” and MSNBC.

Chris, there was two conservative activists, James O’Keefe and Hannah Giles, posing as a pimp and a ho, get this footage with a hidden camera. Is that journalism?

CILLIZZA: I think there is a blurry line of what journalism is now, Howie, with video on demand, with blogs. I will go back to a somewhat less controversial example.

Mayhill Fowler, a Democratic donor, wound up in a San Francisco fund-raiser for Barack Obama in which he said some voters in Pennsylvania are “embittered and cling to their guns.”

KURTZ: And she wrote it for The Huffington Post.

CILLIZZA: She wrote it for The Huffington Post. She was not a journalist. I could not have gotten access to that. It became a massive story. In some ways, I feel as though the time we spend -- it is out there. Once it gets picked up, it doesn’t necessarily matter who produces it.

KURTZ: It took a week for this story to hit the front page of The Washington Post on Friday. It’s on the front page again, of the Post, today, our newspaper.

Ombudsman says the paper was slow. Do you agree with that?

CILLIZZA: I think we were a little slow on it. And I’ll put that on myself. I write a blog, so I can, sort of, post whenever I want. The newspaper comes out once a day.

I didn’t write about it until Thursday, and I wrote about the political implications of it, how much damage could this do to Democrats. But, look, I was behind the ball, so I will take blame for it on myself.

(CROSSTALK)

HOLMES: If -- if liberal activist had walked into the Heritage Foundation, for example, and conducted the same sort of sting operation, it would have been on the front page of The Washington Post in a day. I think that what we’re seeing here was -- is this just a right- wing, sort of, fringe story that the mainstream media didn’t want to touch with a 10-foot pole, or this a real story about corruption at this organization?

And I think the mainstream media, because it was conservative activists going into a liberal organization, were a little bit wary, I would say, of the story.

KURTZ: Eric Deggans, I can make this criticism because I’ve criticized “60 Minutes” and ABC News and others for doing this. When you use a hidden camera and you say you’re somebody else, it involves deception. It involves lying. It would be a firing offense at my newspaper to do it.

But is it all right in this instance because these people, not being journalists, by their own admission, are not bound by those sort of ethical constraints?

DEGGANS: Well, first of all, I would challenge what Amy said. I don’t think what she said was true, necessarily.

HOLMES: Which part?

DEGGANS: I think what -- I think the idea that, if there was some liberal group that did this, it would be on the front page in a minute.

What I do think we’re seeing here is this war and struggle between truth and “truthiness,” and if you remember...

(LAUGHTER)

... what Stephen Colbert talked about, “truthiness,” information that you want to believe is true, but may or may not be true.

And I think what happened is that Fox News has been beating the ACORN drum for so long that mainstream news outlets have been a little skeptical of their reporting on this issue because they’ve said a lot of things about this group.

And it turns out that this big story was not even unearthed by their reporters. It was unearthed by a conservative filmmaker. And who knows what his motives are? Who knows how he edited the tape? Who knows what kind of journalistic standards went into creating this?

I don’t -- I’m not surprised that mainstream media took a beat before they took a look at this tape to make sure that perhaps there was an actual story there.

(CROSSTALK)

DEGGANS: Now, maybe -- maybe...

KURTZ: Let her get a response.

(CROSSTALK)

HOLMES: Eric, hold on. Hold on.

(LAUGHTER)

This is the same media that put on the front page of the New York Times that John McCain might be having an affair with a lobbyist. And, you know, the vetting process that Eric is describing was not used in that story.

DEGGANS: Well, don’t -- don’t blame all of the media for that story. I criticized that story.

HOLMES: Exactly, but what I’m talking...

DEGGANS: That was a story generated by the New York Times and by its reporters. That’s a very different...

HOLMES: Eric, what I’m talking about -- what I’m talking about is that there seems to be different standards for vetting when it comes to covering stories about corruption and this organization, versus complete innuendo about a presidential candidate who happened to have an “R” behind his last name.

KURTZ: All right. Let me turn now to the broader question on the role of Fox News.

Let’s put up the cover of Time magazine. The cover boy this week is Glenn Beck; the headline “Mad Man.” And he did not talk to the magazine for this.

And we talked, last week on this program, Chris Cillizza about the Van Jones story, also pushed by a Fox White House adviser who resigned for saying and doing controversial some things; now the ACORN story.

Do you have the feeling that mainstream or establishment news organizations are being stampeded by Fox?

KURTZ: Or are their eyes being opened to legitimate stories that they would have overlooked?

CILLIZZA: I mean, I think in a world in the media in which so much is going on on a daily basis -- and there really is. I can tell you, things flood in all of the time, you do have to make these judgment decisions about what’s newsworthy and what’s not.

Amy might argue some of that is driven by bipartisanship, I would argue it is not. I mean, I know in my case it’s not. I think when you have someone like Glenn Beck, with the ratings that Glenn Beck gets, or Sean Hannity, with the ratings that Sean Hannity gets, if they are every single night highlighting this, you are starting as a reporter to -- the incoming is a lot more, you’re paying more attention to it than if they ignored it.

I mean, to me, the Van Jones story and this story suggest that we had better pay attention because they have power. There is clearly no...

(CROSSTALK)

KURTZ: So is that a healthy thing that there is an outlet with opinionated hosts who have a -- clearly an ideological agenda, but maybe highlight stories that people like Chris Cillizza need to know about?

HOLMES: Well, I think it’s a healthy thing to get as much information out there from whatever sources, whether it’s an ideological host or it’s a report, Chris Cillizza at The Washington Post, that -- you know, that Americans are getting information.

But I would say that some of these ideological hosts, as Chris pointed out, are bringing different questions and different stories to the table, which I think people have -- you know, should have the right and the opportunity to hear that.

KURTZ: And there are ideological hosts on the left too.

DEGGANS: But again, if I could break in...

KURTZ: You’ve got 10 seconds.

DEGGANS: If I could break in, the problem is that these ideological hosts often say things that are incorrect or that are twisted or that are exaggerated or that are not accurate and that’s the problem.

When Glenn Beck went on Van Jones’s case, he said a lot of things about him that weren’t necessarily fair and then he finally hit on some things that affected...

(CROSSTALK)

KURTZ: Which is why...

DEGGANS: ... Van Jones and forced him to resign.

KURTZ: ... we to do our jobs in vetting information from the left, the right, and any other source. And when you have got something on videotape, though, unless it has been doctored, that’s pretty strong evidence.

Got to go. Eric Deggans, Amy Holmes, Chris Cillizza, thanks for joining us this morning.

And coming up in the second half of RELIABLE SOURCES, media mea culpas, from Kanye West to Serena Williams to the “you lie” congressman, Joe Wilson , why is television giving a platform to folks who were rude and crude?

Plus, that sinking feeling, the news business in a deep financial hole, a new poll shows that most people no longer believe what journalists report.

And Blago is back. But why exactly do we care about the indicted ex-governor?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: I’m John King and this is STATE OF THE UNION. Here are our stories breaking this Sunday morning.

Federal agents have arrested three men in the investigation of an alleged plot to set off bombs in the United States. Najibullah Zazi and his father taken into custody last night in Aurora, Colorado. Another man was arrested in Queens, New York. The three are charged with making false statements. The Justice Department says more arrests are possible.

President Obama says the U.S. job picture likely won’t improve and could get each worse over the next couple of months. In an interview here on CNN’s STATE OF THE UNION this morning, the president predicted significant job growth will happen, but probably not until 2010.

On Afghanistan, the president says he wants to make sure U.S. strategy there is working before he decides whether to send more troops.

Back now to Howie Kurtz and more RELIABLE SOURCES.

KURTZ: Here’s how it works. You do something wrong, outrageous, or just plain stupid. You’ve got a major league image problem, it’s time for the media ritual known as the apology tour. Hello, Oprah, Barbara, Larry, or Jay.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KURTZ (voice-over): It’s hard to imagine a more stunning outburst than Kanye West’s storming the stage at the Video Music Awards when Taylor Swift was being honored.

KANYE WEST, MUSICIAN/RAPPER: Yo, Taylor, I’m really happy for you. I’m going to let you finish, but Beyonce had one of the best videos of all time!

KURTZ: Next stop, Jay Leno’s primetime debut.

JAY LENO, HOST, “THE JAY LENO SHOW”: So when did you know you were wrong? Was it afterwards? As you were doing it? When did it strike you, uh-oh?

WEST: As soon as I gave the mike back to her and then she didn’t keep going.

KURTZ: Serena Williams lost more than her temper at the U.S. Open when a match-ending penalty call led to an expletive-filled tirade. She lost part of her reputation as well. So the tennis star tried to swat the story away on television, missing no opportunity to plug her new book.

KIRAN CHETRY, CNN ANCHOR: What are your thoughts about what went down?

SERENA WILLIAMS, TENNIS PLAYER: Well, yes, like I said, everyone has and says, you know, things that they do and everyone, you know, has moments. No one is perfect, and I think everyone could see that. When I played at the U.S. Open everyone kind of sees me as like a little bit sometimes a robot, which is one of the reasons why I wanted to write “On the Line” because it talks a lot about my faults and a lot about how I kind of felt embraced.

REP. JOE WILSON (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: You lie!

KURTZ: And, of course, the “you lie” moment. Joe Wilson made a brief apology to the White House for shouting out during the president’s health care address to Congress. And then the House reprimanded the South Carolina Congressman for refusing to apologize on the floor. Wilson hit the airwaves, reveling in the rudeness that turned into a fundraising bonanza.

WILSON: I am not going to apologize again. I apologized to the president on Wednesday night. I was advised then that, thank you, now let’s get on to a civil discussion of the issue.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KURTZ: So are the media a tad too quick to embrace the bad boys and girls of culture, sports, and politics, offering forgiveness in exchange for ratings? Joining us now in New York, Jane Velez- Mitchell, the host of HLN’s “ISSUES WITH JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL,” and author of the book “iWant: My Journey from Addiction & Overconsumption to a Simpler, Honest Life.”

And here in Washington, Amy Argentsinger, who co-authors “The Reliable Source” gossip column for The Washington Post.

And, Amy, is Jay Leno the new confession booth? We just saw that with Kanye. I mean, a celebrity does something dumb, he seeks Jay’s forgiveness, and the country is supposed to stand up and cheer?

AMY ARGENTSINGER, “THE RELIABLE SOURCE,” THE WASHINGTON POST: Well, I think Hugh Grant almost 14, 15 years ago probably established the role model for this. You go on “The Tonight Show” and you apologize and you do it in a very charming way. And it really helps to keep you on the radar in a way.

It makes you wonder, in fact, how calculated some of these outrageous, spontaneous outbursts are, because they lead to, you know, three, four, five days’ worth of a news cycle that you get to dominate.

KURTZ: And you have set up my first question to Jane, which is, how sincere are these television -- televised apologies? Kanye didn’t even call Taylor Swift first, he made a beeline for the cameras.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST, “ISSUES”: I don’t know how sincere they are. I know that the public demands them. Howie, we live truly in a global village where most of these insults occur on television.

So people at home feel insulted too.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: And you can’t just apologize to the individual you’ve insulted or the institution, whether it’s the U.S. Open or MTV. You have to apologize to the public, as well.

And that’s why like a private phone call, such as what Joe Wilson made, doesn’t cut it in today’s world, nor does Twitter, nor does Facebook, which they try. They -- first, they try to blog. Then they do Twitter. Then they do Facebook. And when it doesn’t cut it, finally they have to go on “The View” or Larry King or -- or one of these -- the late-night talk show is, obviously, the high pedestal of apology venues.

KURTZ: Since you mentioned Twitter, I’m going to get to that in a moment. The president of the United States had something to say about Kanye, not intended to public consumption. It came up during an off-the-record portion of -- before the interview began with CNBC’s John Harwood. Let’s play that tape.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: The young lady seems like a perfectly nice person. She’s getting her award. What’s he doing up there?

HARWOOD: Why would he do that?

OBAMA: He’s a jackass.

(LAUGHTER)

No -- now, this -- all this stuff -- I’m assuming all this stuff. Where’s the pool? Come on, guys.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KURTZ: You could tell that Obama really knew he was in trouble. He said, “Cut the president some slack.” So then what happened -- let’s just fill people in. ABC’s Terry Moran, the co-anchor of “Nightline,” Tweeted on his Twitter page this word “jackass” that the president had used, then took it down. Then ABC apologized. Should ABC be sorry for this?

ARGETSINGER: ABC should learn a lesson and all reporters should learn a lesson that Twitter is going to get you in the end. Twitter is a big problem. I mean, reporters have this -- this impulse to try to be first, to show everyone that, oh, I knew about this first. And, well, they go out with stuff that they may regret putting out later. I mean, the Terry Moran thing ended up making the Obama jackass comment more of a story than it might have been. I -- I had spent a couple of hours trying to track down that the president had said this until Terry Moran, by saying something that was supposed to be off the record, opened it up for the rest of us.

KURTZ: And then what happened, Jane Velez-Mitchell, is that TMZ, the gossip site, got the audio of the “jackass” remark, and then Politico, we just played it there, posted the video, but then took it down because CNBC wasn’t happy. What is everyone so nervous about? I mean, he said it.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I don’t know. I think it makes the president look very likable. Let’s face it: Kanye West is a jackass. The entire nation feels that way. So the fact that he was overheard saying that, I think, makes him seem very human, very down-to-earth. He’s in touch with popular culture, which so many previous presidents weren’t. We remember the first George Bush not knowing about the scanners in the grocery store. So it’s great to have a president who really knows what’s going on in pop culture.

KURTZ: Yes, I haven’t heard anybody say, “Boy, Obama was wrong. He’s not a jackass.” But just to be clear, I mean, CNBC was bound by the off-the-record restriction, because it’s their interview, but other news organizations -- it’s a fuzzy line.

All right, Serena Williams, we saw that expletive-filled tantrum again at the U.S. Open. Then she goes on “Good Morning America,” and we played the clip from CNN’s “American Morning.” She didn’t sound very sorry. She just kept talking about her book. Should the anchors have pressed her, Amy Argetsinger?

ARGETSINGER: Yes, they probably should have pressed her a little bit. I mean, the Serena Williams thing matters in a way that the Kanye West thing doesn’t matter. I mean, the Kanye West thing, it’s -- it’s -- you know, one millionaire entertainer slighting another millionaire entertainer at a big, fake awards show that thrives on this kind of controversy. It was a made-for-TV event.

The Serena Williams thing, I mean, people do expect a little bit more of Serena Williams, you know, the whole issue of sportsmanship and civility -- yes, should have pressed her more.

KURTZ: But on this question, Jane, of how the anchors handled it, she never really came out and gave a full-throated apology on these morning shows. Is there an unspoken agreement when you land the first or second interview with a big -- get a big get, somebody famous or somebody’s in trouble, that you ask the obligatory question and you move on?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: I think what the public wants is a catharsis, a cathartic moment, where the person, the way Kanye West did, breaks down and admits they’re sorry. We want to see behind the mask.

As the public, we know we’re fed so much hooey about these stars that we love it when they drop the mask and they show us their true selves. Who hasn’t acted badly at a moment where they’re about to lose? So when we see Serena Williams acting badly at that moment, we love it, because it shows that, hey, she’s human, too. We relate to her. We feel better about ourselves, because we’ve done things that were less than gracious at moments like this.

And then we also want to bring them down to earth and make them apologize. It’s like the public stocks, the pillory back in the days of the pilgrims. That’s what we have today with television.

KURTZ: If you’re -- if you’re going to apologize and go before that camera and really apologize, don’t you say, “Well, you know, this is what I talk about in my book”?

All right, the other apology guy is Joe Wilson , the South Carolina congressman, the “You lie” congressman. As -- as Jane mentioned, I mean, he issued that one private apology. Then said, “I’m not going to be muzzled,” and he kept giving interviews. So did the fact that he had done this pretty outrageous thing of shouting at the president during a speech to Congress, was that almost lost in the media?

ARGETSINGER: Because they’re demanding an apology, was it lost?

KURTZ: No, because it became just a news peg for him to -- to get all this attention. I mean, who ever heard of Joe Wilson before?

ARGETSINGER: Well, exactly. Now he’s a very, very important man in the Republican Party. He raised millions of dollars because of this act.

You know, but at the end of day, you know, is it the media’s job to scold and apologize? I don’t know. But it is interesting that he did issue an apology to the president within hours, and everyone’s still demanding another apology. We want -- we want the contrition tour.

KURTZ: Well, the House Democrats were demanding that he do it on the floor, and that led the Democrats, you know, who had their own partisan point to make, to pass this resolution of disapproval.

All right. Let me move on to one other politician who apologized once, but perhaps not fully, John Edwards. Front-page story today, Jane, in the New York Times saying that the former presidential candidate, former senator is considering admitting, after all this time, that he is, in fact, the father of his mistress’ baby, Rielle Hunter’s baby girl.

And the Times got a hold of a book proposal by a former Edwards aide named Andrew Young who took -- took the hit initially, who said, oh, no, I’m the father of that baby, saying, no, no, no. He lied for Edwards. Edwards is the father. So does this story put more pressure on John Edwards to finally, once and for all, come clean on this paternity question?

VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, boy, does it. I mean, this article is horrific. This aide is saying that Edwards said to Rielle Hunter, “Hey, when my wife dies, presumably of cancer, we’re going to have a big wedding in New York, and the Dave Matthews Band is going to perform.” Also, he claims that Edwards tried to scope out, can I get a phony DNA test, presumably so that he could prove that he wasn’t the father of this child.

This is a nightmare for him, and it proves once again the cover- up is always worse than the crime. What was he thinking? We know in this day and age, between the National Enquirer, which broke the story, and the New York Times, which is cleaning up the mess and adding these juicy details, you’re not going to be able to hide a scandal of this proportion when you’ve got a cast of thousands, it seems, involved in the cover-up, not just the aide, but then these wealthy supporters.

Did he really think that all these people were going to keep their mouths shut over time? It’s completely naive. And I don’t know what he could do to clean up this mess, except admit the truth, finally.

KURTZ: It’s worth recalling, Amy, that the mainstream media, lacking proof, initially held back on this story when the Enquirer broke it. And then Edwards went on “Nightline” and said, “Yes, I lied. I did have an affair with her, but, no, it’s not my baby, because the timing is off,” and so forth. So it seems to me that the media -- the story has kind of gone away, but if you’re going to go on television and admit you did a fairly terrible thing to your wife, how about giving us the whole story?

ARGETSINGER: Well, yes. And I think there -- there are two different ways of looking at this. I mean, one is, you know, the -- the whole privacy issue, people -- people bring up, but, you know, if this is his child, then it’s been pretty humiliating treatment.

KURTZ: Should this be on the front page of the Times? Does anyone still care about John Edwards and Rielle Hunter and this baby?

ARGETSINGER: What can I say? I mean, nothing but readers. This is -- you know, as fascinated as people were with Sarah Palin and the Levi Johnston saga, which became a reality show, it became a soap opera...

KURTZ: Right.

ARGETSINGER: ... this is -- this certainly tops that. I mean, is it right or wrong? It’s juicy stuff.

KURTZ: And let’s not forget that John Edwards almost was elected vice president, that he ran for president, and I think he is an important figure, even though he’s out of office and in a whole lot of trouble right now. Jane Velez-Mitchell, Amy Argetsinger, thanks very much for stopping by this morning.

KURTZ: Up next, bottoming out. A new survey puts public confidence in journalists at an all-time low, but does what you think depend on your political views?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KURTZ: Everyone knows how unpopular the media are these days, but like the stock of a bankrupt company, now it’s just hit a new low. Check out these numbers from the Pew Research Center.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KURTZ (voice-over): Do news organizations generally get their facts straight? Only 29 percent of Americans say yes. Are they careful to avoid politically biased reporting? Even worse: 27 percent say yes. Willing to admit their mistakes? Just 21 percent say they are.

What’s driving these low numbers? Democrats are now much more critical of the press. Some 69 percent of Republicans say the media’s reporting is often inaccurate, but 59 percent of Democrats agree, a big jump over two years ago.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KURTZ: And joining us now to examine why the news business has sunk so low in public esteem, Alicia Shepard, ombudsman for National Public Radio, and Mark Jurkowitz, associate director of the Project for Excellence in Journalism.

Mark Jurkowitz, how much responsibility do journalists bear for these abysmally low approval ratings?

JURKOWITZ: Well, the first thing to say about it is, this is part of a trend that’s actually been going on for a number of years now. This survey began in the ‘80s. At that point, we were held in fairly high esteem.

KURTZ: That was a long time ago.

JURKOWITZ: That was a long time ago, but there’s been part -- this ongoing trend has been going on now for about 10 or 15 years, where we’ve really seen decreasing public affection for the media.

To some degree, the news media, obviously, bear responsibility, but I think there are a couple of factors involved here. Number one, we have a tremendous proliferation and fragmentation in the media. So when people talk about the media now, there are so many more practitioners with so many different standards and so many different kind of behaviors.

KURTZ: Before you get to your second point, I want to bring Alicia in.

JURKOWITZ: Sure.

KURTZ: When 7 out of 10 say journalists don’t get it right, even cover up their mistakes, I mean, that is a collapse of public confidence.

SHEPARD: It is, but I’m not sure that it’s totally accurate. I really think it speaks to how hard...

KURTZ: Well, it’s opinion.

SHEPARD: What?

KURTZ: It’s opinion.

SHEPARD: It’s opinion, right, but it just speaks to really how we as Americans said, when we have core feelings and strong beliefs about something, we see something in the news and it disagrees with what we think, we say it’s wrong, we say it’s bias. And so, you know, I think, as Mark said, there is a proliferation of sources out there, and that’s the part that makes it very difficult.

KURTZ: Before I come back to you, let me put up one other poll that actually underscores your point. What do people think about the various cable news networks? Here’s what Pew found.

If you look at CNN in the top line there, 75 percent of Democrats have a favorable view of this network, 44 percent of Republicans. MSNBC doesn’t do as well with Democrats and only 34 percent of Republicans like MSNBC. And then the Fox News Channel is kind of a mirror image: 72 percent of Republicans, favorable view. Only 43 percent of Democrats like Fox.

So it seems like people increasingly trust the news outlets that they agree with?

JURKOWITZ: Well, some -- some people call journalism a validation. You obviously have more options now. One of the things that’s also interesting is, you know, that -- that not only do you have, particularly in cable, different outlets that may give you different perspectives on the news, but part of the message coming out of competing cable outlets is not only that we’re giving you the news, but that the other guy is wrong, and he may be deliberately wrong.

So part of the message that the media now spread about other media is don’t trust them, trust us. And I think that plays into those poll numbers to great degree.

KURTZ: But where does that leave the news organizations that at least try, however flawed they may be, to be in the middle? And I would include CNN in that. CNN doesn’t put a parade of right-wing or left-wing hosts during primetime, but CNN and others are suffering, as well.

SHEPARD: Right. Well, I noticed NPR happened to get the highest favorable percentage, but CNN was right after that.

KURTZ: What was the percentage?

SHEPARD: That was 79 percent overall.

KURTZ: Overall.

SHEPARD: But it leaves news organizations with having to continue to do the job that they’re doing, to report the news accurately with integrity, and to not be trying to cater to one audience or the other.

KURTZ: But are they explaining themselves well enough on this question about credibility and bias and mistakes? And we all make mistakes.

SHEPARD: Yes, I think one of the most disturbing things was that 70 percent say that news organizations do a bad job of correcting their mistakes, so they try to hide them, and I think that the news media is -- it’s doing a disservice to itself to not be more transparent, to not say, “We were wrong. We made a mistake. We’ll learn from this. Let’s move on.”

JURKOWITZ: And I’d point, there is more transparency now, I would argue, in the news media than there were 20 years ago. All three of us were media critics at one point. That was at -- at one time a very small part of this business, a little niche. Now it’s not. Alicia and I were both ombudsmen at -- at news organizations.

KURTZ: You were at the Boston Globe.

JURKOWITZ: I was at the Boston Globe. I actually think that one of the things that’s happened in the last 15 or 20 years is that there is more transparency among media organizations, in part because, frankly, they need to more closely connect with their news consumers in this era.

KURTZ: On Mark’s point -- and if you had, you know, Coke and Pepsi bad-mouthing each other, maybe you’d see the same thing. Fox every night talks about don’t trust the rest of the mainstream media. MSNBC is constantly beating up on Fox. Then you have talk radio, blogs, Twitter. It seems like everybody likes to beat up on us, and that’s fine, but how much does it hurt the brand?

SHEPARD: Well, what you need to do is distinguish between CNN news and Fox News versus the pundits, I mean, O’Reilly, Olbermann. Those people are giving their opinion. And so I’m wondering, when you’re looking at a poll like this, are you knowing -- are you talking about Fox News, the 60-minute news hour? KURTZ: When -- when people are asked that question, are they thinking of Bill O’Reilly or are they thinking of Major Garrett at the White House, who’s a straight reporter?

SHEPARD: Right.

JURKOWITZ: They probably are putting them both together. It would be hard to separate, frankly, the -- I mean, in the same way that many people read newspapers every day and don’t know that the news pages are different from the editorial and opinion pages, I doubt that they’re making that distinction.

There is some good news, by the way...

KURTZ: Very briefly.

JURKOWITZ: ... in this study. One is that people don’t want news organizations to vanish. The other is that they tend to have higher opinions of the news organizations that they use.

KURTZ: I’m glad you have some good news, because I was getting depressed. Mark Jurkowitz, Alicia Shepard, thanks very much for joining us.

After the break, booking Blago. The disgraced ex-governor sits down with just about anybody on television to sell his book, but is he backing up his claims of innocence?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KURTZ: With all the folks apologizing out there -- Kanye West, Serena Williams, Joe Williams, kind of -- there is one man who is standing tall, refusing to say he’s sorry, defending his sacred right to appear on every television show in America. His name is Blago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KURTZ (voice-over): He is under indictment. He was booted out of his job by Illinois lawmakers. But Rod Blagojevich will not be cowed. After all, he has a book to sell.

And the media can’t get enough of this guy. Why? Prosecutors say he broke the law, but he puts on a good show. He’s good box office. It’s not that the anchors didn’t ask tough questions. It’s that Blago has an all-purpose dodge. He can’t discuss the details, because he’s heading to trial, but he can loudly proclaim his innocence for a national audience.

In television terms, he’s bleeping golden.

VIEIRA: You write -- this is a quote from you -- “There is nothing in my private conversations that would verify I was trying to sell the Senate seat.” Yet in those taped conversations released by U.S. Attorney Patrick Fitzgerald right after your arrest, you’re quoted as saying, “I want to make money on the Senate seat.” And, “I’ve got this thing, and it’s bleeping golden, and I’m just not giving it up for bleeping nothing.”

Now, those two quotes, again, widely circulated suggest that you were trying to sell the Senate seat. Why didn’t you address those quotes directly in your book? Are you saying that you -- you never said that stuff?

BLAGOJEVICH: No, this is a story that is completely upside-down.

VIEIRA: Did you say it?

BLAGOJEVICH: It is -- it is a complete lie.

VIEIRA: Did you say it?

BLAGOJEVICH: I did say that, but I said that in a context of politics.

BROWN: OK, so maybe -- maybe technically it’s not illegal, but -- but, really, a routine political deal?

MATTHEWS: So, basically, it’s your bottom line, it’s OK to trade the president’s Senate seat for a job for you in the private sector, a job for you in the cabinet? Is that your belief, that that’s fair, that’s legal?

BLAGOJEVICH: I’m not saying that at all.

VAN SUSTEREN: Is there any reason why you can’t just play them if they set you free, if they -- as you say, if they’re going to show everything?

BLAGOJEVICH: Yes. The prosecutor, those who made the accusations, who took snippets of those conversations out of context, and misled the public, and misled you in the media, mutilated the truth, they’re the ones who went in to court...

VAN SUSTEREN: Yes, but wait a second. That doesn’t...

BLAGOJEVICH: ... and got a protective order that prohibits me and you to talk about those tapes.

KURTZ: Got that? It’s the prosecutor who’s playing the press, not this guy, who spent 45 minutes sparring with Howard Stern. The ex-governor clearly knows when it’s time to just be entertaining.

GEIST: We wanted to do the least hard-hitting interview of all time. So my first question is, why are all these people being so mean to you?

BLAGOJEVICH: Well, which ones? There are so many, I can’t begin to start telling you.

KIMMEL: You could sell this vacant seat...

BLAGOJEVICH: OK.

KIMMEL: ... on eBay. And you can do whatever. You can give the money to charity. You can keep it; I don’t care what you do. But you can sell -- literally sell your seat.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KURTZ: Now, in a legal sense, Rod Blagojevich is presumed innocent until he has his day in court, but he’s guilty of one thing: incredible chutzpah in trying to manipulate the media without really answering the charges. Hot Rod may not know much about ethics, but he knows television can’t resist a good show.

Still to come, pumping up a protest. Fox News goes a bit too far in trying to make a good story even better.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KURTZ: Fox News tried to stick it to the other networks with this in-your-face ad in the Washington Post and other newspapers about last weekend’s conservative protest here in Washington. “How did ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC, and CNN miss this story?”

Well, come on, they all covered the demonstration. Some CNN reporters were out there all day. Fox says it was talking about the larger story surrounding the protest and the ACORN scandal. Right.

But I have to admit: There is a difference in the way Fox covered the story. Here’s Fox correspondent Griff Jenkins doing a live shot, and keep an eye on what is producer is doing.

Now, call me old-fashioned. I don’t think a producer should be whipping up the crowd. If Glenn Beck wants to be a cheerleader for conservative protests, fine, but what you just saw amounts to choreographing the story to get people hollering. Even Fox agrees, its Washington bureau chief telling the Huffington Post that the network has disciplined the inexperienced producer who, he says, made a mistake. That’s for sure.

And John King, as I turn things back over to you this Sunday morning, you covered a lot of ground with your 15 minutes with President Obama at the White House on Friday. Were you conscious at all of the fact that he was doing these four other programs and perhaps trying to get something out of the president that the competition wouldn’t have?

KING: Oh, you try to ask (inaudible) questions. I think you’re conscious, most of all, Howie, that this was the White House idea, so it is part of a political strategy, so we need to make that clear to our viewers (inaudible) that he’s not just doing us, he’s doing these other people, as well. It was on his turf there.

But, sure, you try to ask -- we have an international audience, so I tried to asked probably a little bit more overseas stuff than the other guys, but they’re all worthy friends and allies and, in some ways, competitors, but it was an interesting exercise.

KURTZ: Well, I like the way you snuck in that question about swine flu. How many of us have done that when we’re told, “Time is up,” and yet you got the president to answer just one more question.

We’re handing the ball back to you, John. Thanks very much.

KURTZ: Howie, you have a great Sunday.

I’m John King, and this is “State of the Union.”

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KING (voice-over): It’s 11 a.m. Eastern. Time for “State of the Union’s” sound of Sunday.

KING: Twelve government officials, politicians and analysts have had their say, but all eyes were on one. For the first time in history, a sitting president of the United States appears on five Sunday news shows.

We’ll break it all down with James Carville and Mary Matalin and the best political team on television.

A special presidential edition of “State of the Union’s” “Sound of Sunday” for September 20.

He’s more optimistic about the economy, yet says to the millions of Americans who are unemployed, it could be a while before you’re back to work.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: It is not going to improve considerably, and it could even get a little bit worse over the next couple of months. And we’re probably not going to start seeing enough job creation to deal with a rising population until some time next year.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: On health care policy, the president disputes critics who say requiring Americans to buy is health insurance equals raising their taxes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: For us to say that you’ve got to take a responsibility to get health insurance is absolutely not a tax increase. What it’s saying is that we’re not going to have other people carrying your burdens for you, any more than the fact that, right now, everybody in America, just about, has to get auto insurance.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: And on health care politics, the president makes clear he expects to sign a bill this year and that he understands he can count only on the Democrats.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: Let me put it this way. You know, I’d love to get Republican votes, but I don’t count on them. (LAUGHTER)

And -- and I’m confident that we’re going to get health care passed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: On the world stage, the president says he needs more time before deciding whether to send more U.S. troops to Afghanistan, and he tries to calm increasing Democratic worries that he has no exit strategy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: I don’t have a deadline for withdrawal, but I’m certainly not somebody who believes in indefinite occupations of other countries.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: As you can see -- and there’s the White House on this Sunday morning -- we’ve been watching all of the other Sunday shows, so maybe you don’t have to.

With me here in Washington, where you’ll only find them together here on “State of the Union,” Democratic strategist and CNN political contributor James Carville and Republican strategist and CNN political contributor, Mary Matalin.

Welcome. A lot of ground to cover. I want to start with this issue. Everybody asked the president about it. I want to show you the cover of New York magazine here. “Hate” is their headline, and on the president’s face, some of the slogans we have seen at some of the rallies around the country.

All of us who had a chance to sit down with the president, including yours truly, put the question to him. Jimmy Carter says he sees hints of racism in some of this harsh language. The president says not so much.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: As I’ve said in the past, you know, are there people out there who don’t like me because of race? I’m sure there are.

That’s not the overriding issue here. I think there are people who are anti-government. I think that there are -- there’s been a longstanding debate in this country that is usually that much more fierce during times of transition or when presidents are trying to bring about big changes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Issue over, James Carville?

CARVILLE: Well, no, it’s not over, but I agree much more with what President Obama said than what President Carter said.

And I think, if you look at the Census Bureau data just released, you’ve had an enormous loss of wealth in the United States since 2001; you’ve had an enormous drop in income, so it’s not surprising that people would be more angry than they’d ordinarily be.

Look -- and I can’t -- I’m -- no way for me to go into somebody’s mind and tell me what someone’s motivation is. But, you know, I’m also not naive enough to know that some people might be motivated by that.

But, as I recall -- look, when President Clinton’s health plan was introduced, there was this enormous outcry. And, sort of, what I find funny is that now we find out that the start of it was this woman, Betsy McCoy, who wrote an article in the New Republic. We find out today that she was funded by Philip Morris.

So...

(LAUGHTER)

... you know, when you do something like this, there’s always going to be -- you know, when you have this kind of loss of income; you have this kind of loss of wealth, you’re going to have anger. That is a necessary byproduct of it. I understand that.

MATALIN: Well, of course, the president can be rational. He knows full well that there is racism out there. But race played more to his advantage in the last election.

There’s racism; there’s sexism; there’s ageism; there’s anti- Catholicism. There’s all sorts of “antis” out there. None of them had anything to do with the opposition to health care.

So he can be rational, particularly since he knows these clods and demagogues in his party use references to him, from Jimmy Carter to Nancy Pelosi -- they’re clever and come out and play the race card.

And the -- and the Obama people themselves played the race card against, of all people, Bill Clinton -- yes, they did -- who is -- arguably had a more authentic black American experience than Barack Obama .

But the Democratic Party has a long history of playing all the hate cards. If you’re pro-marriage, you hate gays. If you’re pro- life, you hate women. If you’re pro-freedom, you hate government.

We’re not anti-government. We’re cool with gays. We love women. We’re not misogynists. They’re the ones that are always playing the hate cards, the “anti” cards. And he said it in that bite. We’re not anti-government. We’re pro-freedom.

If you didn’t have such a notorious history of this stuff, we wouldn’t be having this conversation.

CARVILLE: I guess -- I guess it was a Republican congressman called him a boy. I guess there’s no racial implications to that.

MATALIN: No, he did not.

CARVILLE: Of course he called him -- I wasn’t that, “I don’t want this boy’s trigger finger on the nuclear trigger.”

I guess Glenn Beck called him a racist; there’s no racial implications to that. I guess -- Doug Brinkley, who was picked by the Reagan family to edit the Reagan diaries, said that he thought that Joe Wilson -- there was a deal of background of bigotry there.

I mean, yes, this stuff gets out there.

(CROSSTALK)

MATALIN: Well, not Brinkley, who knows the guy -- there’s no evidence of any -- you know what? This is what they do.

The tactic here was to do a celebrity Ginsburg, right, and to do a defensive joint session. Within hours, a tactic designed to telescope the health care debate devolved into a big fight on race.

Would you call that a successful tactic?

Look where he’s -- he’s trashing Joe Wilson . He’s trashing Glenn Beck. How are you addressing health care?

KING: Well, to that point...

(CROSSTALK)

KING: To Mary’s point...

CARVILLE: I went out of my way, just for the record, to -- to say this is about other things. Then she took off after the Democratic Party. I just had to, like, interject a fact or two here, if you don’t mind.

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK)

CARVILLE: What I’m doing is saying what people are saying.

KING: Let me interject a little bit here.

(LAUGHTER)

To Mary’s point, the press at the White House, before the interviews, sent very clear signals the president doesn’t want to go down this path.

The president made clear, you know, there’s a little bit racism, but he doesn’t think that’s the overriding factor.

Now, that’s either what he truly believes or he’s trying to have it both ways, knowing someone else is going to have the argument out there.

I want you to come in on that point. But, in the context of this, having heard this message from the White House all week long, you mentioned Congressman Clyburn. He’s the top African-American in the Congress, the number three in the House Democratic leadership.

He says this in Newsweek, in addition to things he has said throughout the week. He says this in the Newsweek issue out this week, “When you see people pushing the idea that he wasn’t born here, or asking whether he’s Muslim, it becomes clear that they’re just searching for reasons and ways to undermine the president. We can say that it’s not about the color of his skin, but we all know that has some part in it. I’ve not seen any other president treated like this.”

MATALIN: You know, nobody -- there’s only 12 percent of Americans that believe that, and rightly so, more African-Americans do believe that, because of their history, it’s true. And they have a right to feel that way.

But I’ll say again, ageism, sexism -- all the “isms” had nothing to do with the opposition to his policies. And in fact, his race -- this is quantifiable; this is demonstrable in the exit polls, and it’s anecdotal, and you know it, is race was -- went to his advantage in the election.

So it’s just -- I don’t know why we’re having this discussion. It certainly isn’t advancing his -- there might be -- maybe we should stop and have a real discussion on race. And our good friend Donna Brazile said the other day, we can’t have a -- we’re having only a hollow discussion if we don’t discuss the legacy of Jim Crow and all that.

We’re also having a hollow discussion if we don’t discuss the legacy of a generation wrecked, as Daniel Patrick Moynihan said, or the poverty pimps or the grievance industry.

So if you want to have a race discussion, let’s have a real one, not a lot of demagoguery going and a president who wants to have it both ways.

KING: Would it help, James -- this is clearly an emotional issue. And it has been for decades and centuries. Would it be best, in the political context of right now, for Democrats to say, “All right, the president has spoken; stop. Draw a line, and then judge -- from this day forward, if somebody says something that you think is outside the line, start there, not look back anymore”?

CARVILLE: Again, I can’t fault a thing that the president has said. And by the way, the reason that he’s saying these things is because we in the press are asking him about it.

He specifically went out there and said, “I don’t want to discuss it.” It’s not your job -- not your job to discuss what the president wants to discuss. It’s your job to discuss what you think the news is. But it’s a little bit like -- if you talk about this, you’re bringing it up, but although you don’t want to talk about this, you really want to talk about it -- I mean, this -- Joseph Heller -- this thing would drive Joseph Heller crazy.

(LAUGHTER)

KING: All right. Let’s talk about the president’s number one priority at the moment, which is trying to pass the health care bill.

I went to see him just after Mitch McConnell gave a speech to a conservative group here in town, where Mitch McConnell , the Senate Republican leader, was quite confident about how the Republicans were doing in the debate.

KING: Here’s how I put it to the president.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Mitch McConnell told a conservative group, “We’re winning the health care debate.” What do you think of that?

OBAMA: Well, you know, they -- they were saying they were winning during the election, too.

(END VIDEO CLIP) KING: A confident President Obama there, Mary, that he thinks he’s going to get a health care bill this year, whether he gets one Republican vote or not.

MATALIN: I don’t know which election he was in. I don’t remember thinking through the whole election or saying that we were winning. And -- and Mitch McConnell was speaking to a conservative group when he said that.

The truth is the opposition to health care began before the blitz. Mike Allen in Politico ran a cute little piece about in May, Obama is seeking to regain the momentum on health care. The opposition to health care preceded the town halls, preceded all these distracting discussions, and it goes back to the fact that they misread their election mandate.

It was not to overhaul health care or overhaul the energy sector or expand government at the rate they -- they have. So it’s not really the Republicans that are winning or the Democrats that are losing. It’s American people from the middle who are the largest constituency who rose up organically.

KING: One of the side debates -- it’s not central to keeping down health care costs or expanding access or affordability, but it has become a very emotional issue -- is, will this legislation cover illegal immigrants? Would an illegal immigrant, someone here in the United States who broke the law to get here, be able to get a government-subsidized health care plan, some sort of assistance from the United States government? The president says this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: I don’t think that illegal immigrants should be covered under this health care plan. There should be a verification mechanism in place. We do that for a whole range of existing social programs. And I think that’s a pretty straightforward principle that will be met.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: That the right policy answer, James Carville? Or is that a political answer because of how stormy this is?

CARVILLE: Well (inaudible) I mean, Republicans introduced this legislation to say that you can’t treat anybody until you prove citizenship. I was speaking to the cardiologists this week. So somebody is going to come in with a heart attack, you’re going to say, “Let me see your papers before I can treat you.” That’s a pretty -- it’s a pretty ludicrous place to here.

By the same token, people do -- you know, don’t want people that are here illegally to do this. There’s all kinds of things that you work out, because if you’re here illegally and your children are born in the United States, they’re citizens. It’s a pretty complex issue.

I suspect that the Democrats, in order to get this passed, are going to have to be pretty strict on this. And most people don’t want their tax dollars to go to people who are -- that are here illegally. And I understand that. But what about -- do you treat somebody that has the swine flu? Do you treat somebody that has an infection? And these are sort of complex societal problems that are not reducible to a sound bite, if you will.

MATALIN: Not surprisingly, James has misstated all of this. It is illegal to not provide health care for somebody who comes in, in an emergency situation. What this legislation is about is subsidizing health insurance which is different from treating. It’s illegal to not treat somebody.

But for somebody to be subsidized by the government, they should be able to have -- they should be forced to validate and verify their citizenship. But let’s go to the bigger political point, that what people who care about health care reform want is they want their costs lowered and they want their quality maintained.

Now we’re talking about federally subsidized immigration coverage, federally subsidized abortions. These are side conversations which have nothing to do with what people want, prioritize what they want in health care.

Furthermore, since this debate has ensued, there are people that don’t even prioritize health care anymore. Three times more people want to focus on the deficit and the economy than overhauling health care right now.

KING: A quick timeout. A quick timeout here. We’re going to make a little money on “State of the Union.” We’ll be back, though, with more of James and Mary.

When we come back, other topics, including whether the president should listen to seven former CIA directors who say shut down a Justice Department investigation of the Bush administration. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We’re back with Democratic strategist James Carville and Republican strategist Mary Matalin.

One of the questions I put to the president was about Eric Holder and this investigation. Eric Holder is the attorney general, of course, looking at potential violations of the law during the Bush administration for this interrogation tactics, this terrorism interrogation tactics.

The seven -- I spoke to the president just after he received a letter from seven former directors of central intelligence saying this is a bad idea, it’ll undermine the intelligence community, it’s a bad idea, Mr. President, use your powers and stop your attorney general. The president says no.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: I’ve made clear both publicly and privately that I have no interest in witch hunts, but ultimately the law is the law, and we don’t go around sort of picking and choosing how we approach it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Right answer?

MATALIN: You know, his interview here and -- he always tries to have it both ways. It wasn’t just those CIA directors who had worked for every previous president. It would have been Poppy Bush and Gates, too, except for their respective positions, Bush 41. And his own CIA director is against it, Leon Panetta.

Everybody in the world says the same thing. This is undermining our number-one tool for attacking terrorists, and that’s getting intelligence. The reason the Paks have been able to be so successful at these drone efforts in the Swat Valley and everywhere else is because of the intelligence that we provided for them.

So he’s walking it back. They’re narrowing the focus. I know they don’t want to have this political discussion. But he does have, as commander-in-chief, as the president, you can maintain an independent Department of Justice, but tell Eric Holder, “I want to look forward. I really want to look forward, and I want to maintain an intelligence capacity that helps us continue to fight terrorism.” He can do that.

CARVILLE: Look, this is not -- this is a loser politically. Poll after poll after poll, every political operative is telling the president to get away from this thing. It’s a loser. You’ve got seven CIA directors saying, “Don’t do this.” So why is the president doing it? I mean, we can say a lot of things about this president, but, you know, he is -- he is a pretty good politician. He’s a pretty bright guy. I don’t know. The only thing that one can conclude from this is there’s something that the attorney general, who, by the way, he’s a pretty able guy himself -- there’s something that the attorney general and senior people in the Justice Department know that they just feel like they can’t walk away from. That’s the only rational explanation for this.

Because if we know what we know now, based on the politics of it, based on the fact that you have all of these -- and your current CIA director and plus the other ones saying this, it doesn’t make any sense. And so I suspect, at the end of day, we will find out what the real reason is. Right now, we don’t know.

KING: I want you two to pay -- just look over your shoulder as I walk over here, because I want to show you some numbers that I find striking. You two are among the best in the business in looking at campaigns. Now, I want to walk through some numbers with you.

This is the president of the United States opinion among senior citizens. His approval rating among seniors has dropped 20 points in six months, from February to now, seven months, 20 points his approval rating has dropped. That’s one stunning number.

I want to move over to the middle of the country here and pull up another number. Come in here, here’s his opinion among white men. The president’s approval rating has gone from 56 percent in February down to 47 percent, now disapproval way up, as well.

And one last number -- and for that, we’ll go out to the state of Colorado. I want to pull this number up here, move this down. And here’s independents. The president had a 63 percent approval rating in February, 51 percent down, down among independents, way down among senior citizens, down among white men.

If you look, James, back to 1993 and ‘94 and where President Clinton and the Democratic Party fell heading into those midterms, you will find eerily similar numbers, especially among seniors and white men.

CARVILLE: I wrote an op-ed piece in the Financial Times about 10 days ago, and the big -- you know, as Ray Charles once said, “What’s the worst thing about being blind?” He said, “Well, you can’t see.”

The difference between this and what was happening is ‘94 is we’re a year out. And, by the way, 47 percent among white men, I have to tell you, is not a bad number for a Democrat. If you’re 47 percent with white men and you’re a Democrat, that’s -- the stuff with seniors is somewhat alarming. Look, the president’s had -- his approval rating has dropped considerably. It’s still not -- it’s not terrible and is inching up a little bit. So these are the kind of numbers that you’re going to see.

There are many numbers of sort of positive signs out there for Democrats. I think that we’re -- we’re -- we’re, you know, locked into a position with this health care thing for now is going to be 50/50. But they’re coming back in September.

The summer -- I described the summer of 2009 that the Democratic Party had to be feeling a little bit like a Louisiana ditch-digger. When is this thing going to get over with?

But, you know, the -- it’s been -- September has been a little bit better month for us. If we can just keep this momentum, we’ll be fine.

KING: I assume you, as a Republican, you want the election tomorrow.

MATALIN: It doesn’t matter, because what they’ve -- they’ve charted a course here. You know all these numbers. It’s not just seniors and independents, which were a big part of his victory, his electoral victory. He’s lost 3 points among African-Americans. He’s lost 10 points of the youth vote, which was your -- the source of your last book, about this is going to -- 40 more years.

All right, so they’re not -- they’re -- because their -- their tactics -- your tactics can never be wrong if your strategy is wrong. And the strategy is always going to be wrong if it’s predicated on this is a realignment, this is a transformational election. It was a repudiation of Republicanism. You had 4 million Republicans that didn’t turn out. You had an elevated and energized Democratic base.

And -- and -- and in his majority in the House, which is 40 seats, 48 of those seats were owned by Bush or McCain. He’s got these -- he’s got a completely split party. Those constituencies and those districts aren’t going to change. You can do whatever you want. Your trajectory for 2010 is on a...

(CROSSTALK)

MATALIN: ... downward spiral.

CARVILLE: I don’t buy that at all. And if you look at -- by the way...

MATALIN: Want to bet...

(CROSSTALK)

CARVILLE: You look at -- look at -- look at -- I don’t know -- look at these economic numbers. And, by the way, yes, Obama is going to take credit for the recovery. And everything that the Republicans said that his plans were a disaster and wouldn’t work, right now, in Democracy Corps, we show a 10-point increase since the start of September and how people are feeling about this.

And you’re doggone right that it -- and some people believe? I don’t know if this is going to be true or not. You know, job creation is going to start in this country some time in the next year. And once we get it going, I can already tell you that the Democratic campaign is going to do that.

So I’m -- you’re right. You lose 20 points, you’re going to -- you’re going to find that you’re going to lose a lot of voters. I mean, but -- but -- but I think there’s evidence that this thing has not only stabilized, but gotten a little bit better. And we’ll see. KING: Let’s end on this note. The president is seemingly everywhere if you turn on a TV today, but Carville’s had his own media blitz, too. Now, with the use -- the president did all of these interviews himself. Carville, though, has a body double. Let’s look. This is the “Saturday Night Live” special on Thursday night and James Carville being asked about all these protests in the country.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MEYERS: So, James, what do you think of these protesters?

HADER: (inaudible) these people out there are protesting, grown men dressed up as jokers and goblins and Hitlers. I mean, these -- these people are first-class crazy. And I should know, Seth, because I’m as crazy as they come.

(LAUGHTER)

I mean, look at me. I see this in the mirror every morning and I think, “Yup, that’s a good look.” Come on, I look like a Skeletor!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATALIN: I love that look. I’ve always loved that look. You’re the most compelling, handsome, manly man. He looked like a girly girl. You’re my -- you’re favorite Skeletor. He has to be funny if you’re in politics (inaudible) so we’re very proud of you. The girls and I are very proud of you on “Saturday Night Live.” That’s wonderful.

KING: Look at that touching moment.

CARVILLE: Beautiful wife and beautiful children, what can I say?

KING: And not such a bad impersonator there, either.

CARVILLE: No, no.

KING: James and Mary, thank you. It’s ending on a soft, touchy moment. I won’t let that happen next time.

MATALIN: OK.

KING: All right, James and Mary, thanks.

When we come back, I go to a place where I started my career, the state of Rhode Island, big unemployment rate, and lots of worry about health care. We’ll sit down for a great meal at the Modern Diner, when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Boston -- Dorchester, Massachusetts, to be exact -- is home for me, but neighboring Rhode Island is also an incredibly special place. I went to college in the Ocean State, and it is there where I fell in love with reporting and where I earned my first paycheck in this business.

It’s always nice to go back, but this trip was a little bittersweet. Rhode Island is among the states hardest hit by the current recession. Let’s take a look at some of the numbers, 12.8 percent unemployment rate. It puts Rhode Island in the top five states, the highest unemployment rates. Nearly 10 percent of the residents of Rhode Island lack health insurance. The population of the state, nearly 80 percent white, 12 percent Hispanic, and 6 percent blacks.

Now, I mentioned those demographics because, when we stopped at a great landmark, the Modern Diner in Pawtucket, we talked racial politics, as well as health care and jobs.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KING: Let me start with a question about the state of the economy here. Rhode Island was one of the states that shot up pretty quickly when unemployment started to go up across the country.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KING: Let me start with a question about the state of the economy here. Rhode Island was one of the states that shot up pretty quickly when unemployment started to go up across the country. There are those in the White House who think not only is the worst over, but that we’re actually starting to grow again. Do you see any evidence of that view?

FATHER JOSEPH PAQUETTE, ROMAN CATHOLIC PRIEST: Oh yes, I do. I think that there is certainly hope, we’re seeing a lot of hope right now. I’m the pastor of a large parish and a lot of my people, some of them are still out of work. Some of them have gone back to work.

KING: Do you see that in your small business?

DANIEL GOLD, SMALL BUSINESS OWNER: Not exactly. I mean, my small business is based on manufacturing. We have seen a little bit of a pickup both locally and internationally. However, generally speaking, I haven’t seen it pick up as much as I would like.

KING: Anxious?

MINDY BAILEY, RETIRED NURSE: Anxious, yes. My husband works for the Post Office and they just recently offered to buy out for early retirement and they’re looking to get rid of jobs and luckily my husband has been there 25 years. So he has pretty good seniority, but there are people there that are worried about their jobs.

KING: Here’s one of the other big debates. The front page of The Providence Journal, the latest, there are several competing health care proposals. This is one that was put forward in the Senate that is said to be more middle of the road, not as liberal as the one in the House.

Do you think it’s important that Washington deal with health care reform and spend maybe $800 billion or $1 trillion over 10 years or -- is that necessary, or can the country not afford that right now?

BAILEY: I think the country can afford to spend money on health care. We spend money on a lot of things that we don’t need to. I think health care is very important.

GOLD: Health care is an interesting one, and here in Rhode Island particularly, we have very little or very few choices in terms of our health care providers, so having the choice to buy health care over state lines or to have, you know, more competition would be definitely welcome here in this state.

PAQUETTE: A lot of my community are elderly people and a lot of them are struggling because they -- and it’s costing them a fortune for their medical coverage because they don’t have -- some of them don’t have -- what is it, 16 million Americans don’t have health coverage? And that’s a lot of people. And it’s sad, everybody deserves health coverage.

KING: Does it make sense to you, the debate, or is it confusing? There are a lot of numbers thrown around, there are a lot of charges thrown around.

PAQUETTE: I’m confused about it, but I do think we need it. We need some clarification on it, for sure.

KING: One more headline. As race debate grows, Obama steers clear of it. There have been some recently, who, when you have a congressman scream up “you lie” during a speech from the president, some other harsh comments made at some of these rallies around the country, there are some who say that part of this is race, it’s because there are some people who just can’t accept that the country has an African-American president.

Do you think some of it is race? Do you hear race in reaction to President Obama?

BAILEY: I do think that race plays a part in this and I don’t think it should be so. I think that the people voted for a president and a Democratic president and then that’s what they should be looking for, not that he’s a black president.

KING: Do you hear that in conversations about him in your life or just a distant Washington conversation?

GOLD: Yes -- no, I think I have, and I think maybe everybody has heard that issue come up in conversation about Obama or about, you know, candidates in general. I can’t personally fathom it in this day and age, but it does exist and I think maybe more in some places than others, but I absolutely have.

PAQUETTE: It saddens me terrible to think that that would be possible, but I have to say that as I listened to the president that day and heard that -- the congressman yell out, that was the first thought that came to my mind. But it saddens me to think that in this day and age that we’re still struggling with that.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: Great conversation and trust me, a great tomato and feta omelet at The Modern Diner in Pawtucket, Rhode Island.

When we come back, more of the president’s Sunday media blitz. We’ll dissect the sound with three of our best and they’ll empty their notebooks. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) KING: I’m John King and this is STATE OF THE UNION. Here are our stories breaking this Sunday morning.

Federal agents have arrested three men in the investigation of an alleged plot to set off bombs in the United States. Najibullah Zazi and his father were taken into custody last night in Aurora, Colorado. Another man was arrested in Queens, New York. The three are charged with making false statements and the Justice Department says more arrests are possible.

The hunt for a criminally insane killer is now in its fourth day, authorities in Washington State say 47-year-old Phillip Arnold Paul walked away from a mental hospital field trip on Thursday. Police believe he’s headed to the town of Sunnyside where his parents live.

Florida police are looking for a man whose wife and several young children were found dead. Detectives believe he’s in Haiti right now. Authorities found the bodies last night in the family’s home in North Naples, Florida.

Those are your top stories here on STATE OF THE UNION.

The White House there on a late, September Sunday morning. And joining us here in studio, three members of the best political team on television. CNN’s senior White House correspondent Ed Henry, he knows that building; national political correspondent, Jessica Yellin; and senior congressional correspondent, Dana Bash.

Let’s start on Afghanistan. The president with some interesting things to say, but also some of those he will have to deal with in Congress as he faces this big decision about whether to send more troops.

Now Barbara Starr reported the other day that General McChrystal, the commanding general, he is ready. He has his report, he has his recommendation, but Washington, the administration has told him, we’ll call you when we want it, we have other things we need to deal with first. What about the Karzai election? What about some other political recommendations?

So I asked the president about his strategy. He has this to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: We are in the process of working through that strategy. The only thing I’ve said to my folks is, A, I want an unvarnished assessment, but, B, I don’t want to put the resource question before the strategy question, you know, because there’s a natural inclination to say, if I get more, then I can do more.

But right now the question is -- the first question is, are we doing the right thing? Are we pursuing the right strategy?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: On the one hand, Ed Henry, understandable. The president wants all of the pieces of the puzzle before he makes a key decision, but on the other hand if you hear the general has this report and recommendation, you have got those young men and women at risk in Afghanistan, why would it hold you up? That could open you to criticism.

ED HENRY, SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Right. You want to get it right, obviously. That’s the most important thing here, because the U.S. has not necessarily gotten it right for a long time in Afghanistan, over two administrations now.

And I think your follow-up question to the president was critical. Sir, what would you say to Americans who say you’ve been in office for eight months? You keep saying you’re going to have a strategy, where is the strategy? This is critical.

I, however, would say that people who have been in some of these private meetings with the president say that some of the national security holdovers from the previous administration have said that there has been unvarnished looks at the situation on the ground in Afghanistan, and that people have been remarking in some of these private meetings, we should have had these tough meetings about the facts on the ground two years ago. So that bodes well for the president that he is trying to finally get the facts straight. However, how much time have we lost in the last two years including the first eight months of this administration without getting the strategy right.

KING: And as the president waits, it creates a political vacuum for others to offer their opinions and among those who thinks more troops are needed and more troops are needed now is Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: I don’t believe it’s possible to turn around Afghanistan without more American combat power somewhere near 40,000 troops. Having said that, the key to us leading with security and honor is to put pressure on the Karzai government. I want to help this president do the things we need to do, stand up to a skeptical public and I understand why people are skeptical, but I’ll be one Republican standing by this president and we will not do it him what they did to Bush. This is not Obama’s war in Afghanistan. This is America’s war and there’s a way to win it. According to our commanders, we’re going to need more resources to do and I want to help this president.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Republican Lindsey Graham wants to help. How about Democrats on Capitol Hill?

BASH: Well, I mean, I think that’s the reality is that whether or not they’re delaying this announcement or delaying this decision at the White House because of the politics of it, that’s certainly one explosive question. But regardless of that, the answer to how Democrats are going to respond is already out there because we’ve heard especially this past week, Democrat after Democrat after Democrat coming out and saying hold on a second, we need many more answers. That’s why you saw some briefings on Capitol Hill with members of the Pentagon with some information about the so-called benchmark.

But I want to go back quickly to Lindsey Graham because yes, he is saying, and just like his very good friend John McCain is saying, we want to support the president in the idea about the need to add more troops. But I think that you are also going to see more Republicans like those two come out and question the process and whether or not it is the right thing to do to say first the strategy, then the resources.

Many people who say that they have a pretty good experience and a track record in Iraq say that all needs to be done at once. So they’re supportive of the president right now, but I’m not sure how long that is going to last given how things are going.

YELLIN: And one of the problems he has had, John, is this skeptical public which is what Lindsey Graham is talking about. I think as it turns out these recent terror arrests help him more than anything right now because it’s a reminder that this isn’t about a project in nation building overseas. This is about America and a threat here. And so in terms of the public relations message that can be very helpful for him. I also think that Lindsey Graham might regret those words when he said we will never call this Obama’s war, we will not call this Obama’s war. That’s a clip the White House should keep.

KING: Dana mentioned the process and the Republicans getting a little frustrated. That was one of the issues that I discussed with the Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell . Let’s listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCCONNELL: The president enjoys very strong support among Republicans in the Senate for what he’s doing in Afghanistan. We are, however, disturbed by reports from your network, CNN, that he was in effect asking General McChrystal to delay his recommendation. We think it is time to receive the recommendation. We would like to see General McChrystal and General Petraeus come up to Congress like they did during the Iraq surge and to give us the information about what they’re recommending.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Tough one for the president, Ed, because if the general’s report becomes public and he goes up and testifies to Congress and let’s say he wants 20,000 more or 30,000 more or as Lindsay Graham said maybe 40,000 more and the president’s not ready to make that decision yet, you have a huge debate already and you’ve got a number out there for people to put a target on.

HENRY: Absolutely. It puts even more pressure on the president saying, look, people are dying on the ground in Afghanistan, get them the resources and as Dana pointed out, it’s not just about the strategy.

The strategy and resources have to be done in conjunction with one another. If it looks like the White House is putting political pressure here on the Pentagon to hold back, that’s going to be a problem. And also, this is going to be a bigger and bigger issue, this whole question of General McChrystal will be allowed to testify on the Hill. The early indications from the administration is they don’t want that to happen. We’re going to hear Republicans push it hard.

BASH: And I’m going to be very interested to hear what your last guest, the Senate Armed Services chairman says about this because for eight years, we heard about the frustration among Democrats that there wasn’t enough oversight with regard to President Bush. Well now you have a Democrat in the White House and Carl Levin is in charge of oversight of the Pentagon. So if there is any question of whether or not the Pentagon is withholding a very important report because of any politics or political decision at the White House, it will be very interesting to see what he says.

KING: Carl Levin is the chairman of the Armed Services Committee, as Dana notes. He will be here in the next hour. But first a quick break and then much more with Ed Henry, Jessica Yellin and Dana Bash. Don’t go anywhere.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Back now with CNN’s Ed Henry, Jessica Yellin and Dana Bash. Let’s move on to what the president said about health care. One of the things in the Finance Committee proposal in the Senate is a fee on Cadillac insurance plans. If you have one of those high-end insurance plans, your insurance company would have to pay a fee if they give you that big generous plan.

But many people believe the insurance company would then just pass it on to the consumer. Now mostly that’s CEOs, but some unions have negotiated pretty good deals. So I put the question to the president, could that be a back door way to maybe break your promise during the campaign to not raise taxes on middle-class Americans.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: This is a very important issue. I’ve been talking to the unions about it, I’ve been honest with them about it. What I’ve said is that we want to make sure that guys are protected, guys and gals who got a good benefit, that they are protected, but we also want to make sure that we’re using our health dollars wisely.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: I take that “but” at the end as maybe some of you are going to be subject to this one if I get a deal in the end.

BASH: That was pretty strong stuff. If I’m a member of the union or maybe part of the political leadership of the union, that I think you’re right. It was a shot across the bow because what’s going on with regard to this debate is that tax that the president endorsed in his joint session before Congress, taxing the Cadillac plan, it is in the program, and it is in the proposal, by Senator Baucus, but now that it’s in there, many Democrats are saying whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa! It’s too expansive and the reason is because they’re hearing from unions and because unions have very generous plans that they’ve negotiated. So even John Kerry , by the way, this was his idea to tax Cadillac plans, even he is against the way this is in there.

KING: Oh, that’s too easy. That’s too easy.

(LAUGHTER)

Wait, wait, wait. He was for it...

(LAUGHTER)

BASH: To his defense, Max Baucus did change it and expand it. But, yes, it was a little too easy.

But that was a very interesting moment. That was aimed at unions but also Democrats on the Senate Finance Committee whose votes are needed to get this through the committee.

KING: How hard is this for the president to keep this coalition?

You know, he needs the unions, but he also needs business. He needs the doctors, but he also needs the insurance companies.

YELLIN: It’s proven to be his most difficult challenge to date, maybe in his entire political career. And he is trying his hardest, here in this instance, to at least win over some centrist Democrats and say, look, everybody is going to feel the pain in this, including my base; it’s a big signal to the country that I’m not going to cater to the liberal end of the party.

But he is struggling here. He’s even given a talk to the unions this week, with a tariff deal that’s gotten him in some trouble with China.

So he’s given with one hand, taking with another, hoping to reach some kind of balance.

HENRY: But here’s what’s also going to worry the unions, is, if you read between the lines, when you ask, would you sign the Baucus bill if it came to your desk, he said it’s too hypothetical.

But then he walked through -- there were some of the things he likes about the Baucus bill. But I never heard -- if you read between the lines -- “I’m really upset that there’s no public option in the Baucus bill.”

He didn’t really get into that. He’s not fired up about that. And so, when you read the tea leaves, again, he’s not adamant about what the unions want, which is that public option. KING: He did say in some other interviews that he hopes it’s there in the end and he believes it’s possible to still get it in the end. But he’s not -- you’re certainly right. He’s not saying it has to be there in the end...

HENRY: Right.

KING: ... which is what the unions are saying.

Let’s move to another issue. He also sat down with Jorge Ramos of Univision, who is a great journalist, who reminded the president of a promise he made during the campaign, when candidate Obama promised Univision that, in his first year of office, he would push for comprehensive immigration reform.

The question was put to the president.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: It would be easy for us to get a bill introduced. The challenge is getting the bill passed. And there I’ve been realistic. What I said was -- is that this is going to be a tough fight and that we’re going to have to make sure that we are working as hard as we can to do it.

I am not backing off one minute from getting this done, but let’s face it. I’ve had a few things to do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(LAUGHTER)

KING: That’s a fact. He’s had a few things to do. This is not happening in the first year of the Obama administration, is it?

HENRY: That was so last year, John.

(LAUGHTER)

I mean, you know, that was a campaign promise. It’s right as an interviewer -- and Jorge Ramos was -- to come back and say, “Look, you made this promise.” However, you know, the White House staff loves to laugh when we press them on some other -- well, what is he doing on immigration reform?

They say, wait, didn’t you ask us yesterday at the briefing why he’s taking on too much?

You know, so there’s, sort of, this constant push and pull. It’s also like the overexposure charge that’s out there, and then the White House says, well, wait, didn’t CNN ask for another interview with the president, so you guys don’t think he’s overexposed.

(LAUGHTER)

So, you know, there is a push and a pull, here. He does have a lot on his plate.

YELLIN: Tough fight, hard choices, difficult work ahead.

(LAUGHTER)

These are a politician’s way of avoiding the answer. He can’t take this on right now, but he will have to in this first term.

BASH: And it will be interesting. Because if he can do it the way that he says he wanted to do it, it could actually be the issue, ironically, that could begin to change the partisan tone.

Because, if he does reach out his hand to John McCain , who’s been wanting to do this for a long time, and if they can figure out a way to do it together, you know, you could potentially have an issue where you would have two bipartisan...

(CROSSTALK)

KING: I think that’s one of the great questions. Isn’t it -- let’s assume, from everything we see right now, health care goes down this partisan path. Maybe they get one or two in the end. It looks unlikely at the moment. Maybe they do. Stimulus was three Republicans in the end.

Is there something? Is that it? Is immigration, the emotional, divisive issue of immigration, that’s going to be, suddenly, the bipartisan issue?

BASH: Could -- could -- I mean, with a capital “C.”

(LAUGHTER)

Because it is so emotional and because -- you know, talk to somebody like John McCain and he will say that he didn’t have the best experience with Barack Obama the last time he tried to negotiate with him. But, you know, that was during a presidential campaign.

(CROSSTALK)

HENRY: ... some bipartisanship on Wall Street reform. I mean, let’s face it. I think it’s easy for lawmakers in both parties...

(CROSSTALK)

HENRY: Absolutely, the details. But heading into a midterm election, if you’re a Democrat or Republican incumbent and you go home with -- to the voters and you have not reformed Wall Street...

YELLIN: Yes, the White House is counting on that, too.

KING: All right, a quick time-out here. When we come back, what they love the most on that side of the table, the lightning round...

(LAUGHTER)

... starting with the question Ed just brought up. Is President Obama overexposed?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CONAN O’BRIEN, HOST, “THE TONIGHT SHOW”: You know, President Obama is pushing so hard for health care, he’s going to appear on an unprecedented five shows this Sunday -- five television shows, yes. What’s strange is two of them are “Entourage” and “Family Guy.”

(LAUGHTER)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Conan O’Brien, there, setting up our lightning round. One of the questions, “Is the president overexposed?”

Now, the president, in one of those interviews -- he did five -- not “Entourage” and “Family Guy.” In one of them, he explained why it’s so important for him to be out there primarily pushing health care.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: I’ve tried to keep it digestible. You know, it’s very hard for people to get their whole arms around it. And that’s been a case where I have been humbled. And I just keep on trying harder because I really think it’s the right thing to do for the country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: You heard the president, there, say “digestible.” Well, we couldn’t resist. Digestible? here’s Republican Senator Lindsey Graham .

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRAHAM: The president is selling something that people, quite frankly, are not buying. He’s been on everything but the food channel.

(LAUGHTER)

KING: You’re our senior White House correspondent. When’s the food channel?

HENRY: Everything but the food channel and anything involving the Fox channel. So I think...

KING: Ouch.

(LAUGHTER)

HENRY: ... we need to expand it a little bit. And as far as overexposure, I’m writing an e-mail now, but I’m going to preview it. “Dear Robert Gibbs, Rahm Emanuel , I do not think he’s overexposed. And can I do an interview on Thursday?

(LAUGHTER)

(inaudible) in Pittsburgh. I’ll be there.

YELLIN: My favorite part was that he’s become the media critic in chief, also. You know, he goes on -- we accuse him of being overexposed. His great strength is speaking. But then he goes on our show and says cable does it wrong. Then he goes on the network shows and says the networks do it wrong. He’s given us advice, don’t highlight the extremes. He wants to be the main voice.

BASH: I’m going to be, kind of -- you know, the “anti” person here, because I don’t get the question. I mean, I think the president should go out there and push what is his top priority.

Why not? You know, go out. You know, go on every single channel. Go on the food channel, if you want to, if you think that’s going to help you. Do it. Why not?

KING: All right. One show the president won’t be on -- very quickly, here -- John Boehner, the Republican leader of the house, would you go on “Dancing With the Stars?”

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JOHN A. BOEHNER, R-OHIO, HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: I’ll pass.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(LAUGHTER)

KING: Any takers in the room, right here?

YELLIN: Look, he’d be great.

(CROSSTALK)

KING: It’s a tough crowd. Time out. Thank you all. Ed, Jessica, Dana, thank you very much.

(CROSSTALK)

KING: That is.

We’d like to welcome back our international viewers for this hour. I’m John King. This is STATE OF THE UNION.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KING (voice-over): One-on-one with President Obama.

OBAMA: I don’t think that illegal immigrants should be covered under this health care plan.

KING: Our sit-down interview, the president discusses the signature issues facing the nation, from health care to the economy and the U.S. mission in Afghanistan. And we put your questions to the president.

Then, reaction from the top Republican in Congress, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell of Kentucky.

And he says this is no time to send more U.S. troops to Afghanistan. The powerful chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, Democrat Carl Levin , gets “The Last Word.”

And our “American Dispatch” from Connecticut, where fears of a possible H1N1 flu pandemic have campuses on high alert and vaccine- makers in a rush.

This is the STATE OF THE UNION report for Sunday, September 20th.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: It is eight months to the day since Barack Obama made history. He took office as the 44th president of the United States. From day one, enormous challenges. An economy in collapse. Two difficult wars overseas. The daunting math of matching health care reform and other ambitious campaign promises up against the rising red ink of deficit spending. On this, day 244 of the Obama presidency, the challenges are just as many and dealing with them complicated by a political climate here in Washington and across the country that has turned raw and contentious, in part some believe because the president is African- American.

A lot to talk about as I sat down with the president in the Roosevelt Room at the White House.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KING: Mr. President, thank you for joining us.

OBAMA: Great to see you.

KING: I want to begin with the economy. I get out of Washington every week for the show, I was in Connecticut and Rhode Island this week. And I knew I was going to be seeing you, so I asked 20 people: “What would you ask if you had the privilege that I have at this moment?” Eighteen of the twenty, eighteen, asked a variation of...

OBAMA: Jobs.

KING: ... where are the jobs? When are they coming back?

OBAMA: Yes. Well, look, the -- this is something that I ask every single one of my economic advisers every single day, because I know that ultimately the measure of an economy is, is it producing jobs that help people support families, send their kids to college? That’s the single most important thing we can do. What we’ve done, I think, in the first eight months is to stop the bleeding. We’ve...

KING: Is the recession over?

OBAMA: Well, you know, I’ll leave that up to the Fed chairman to pronounce whether it’s officially over or not. I think what’s absolutely clear is that -- that the financial markets are working again, that we even saw manufacturing tick up, in terms of production, last month. So all of the signs are that the economy is going to start growing again.

But here’s -- here’s the challenge, that not only are usually jobs figures the last to catch up, they’re the lagging indicator, but the other problem is, we lost so many jobs that making up for those that have already been lost is going to require really high growth rates.

And so what we’re focused right now on is, how can we make sure that businesses are investing again? How can we make sure that certain industries that were really important, like housing, are stabilized? How can we expand our export markets? And that’s part of what the G-20 meeting in Pittsburgh is going to be about, making sure that there’s a more balanced economy.

We can’t go back to the era where the Chinese or the Germans or other countries just are selling everything to us, we’re taking out a bunch of credit card debt or home equity loans, but we’re not selling anything to them.

So that’s how all this is going to fit together. But I want to be clear that probably the jobs picture is not going to improve considerably -- and it could even get a little bit worse -- over the next couple of months. And we’re probably not going to start seeing enough job creation to deal with the -- you know, a rising population until some time next year.

KING: Do you think jobs will not grow -- you will not be adding jobs until some time next year, or maybe...

(CROSSTALK)

OBAMA: No, I think -- I think we’ll be adding jobs, but you need 150,000 additional jobs each month just to keep pace with a growing population. So if we’re only adding 50,000 jobs, that’s a great reversal from losing 700,000 jobs early this year, but, you know, it means that we’ve still got a ways to go.

KING: Let’s talk health care. The Senate Finance Committee finally has a proposal before it by the chairman, Max Baucus . It’s getting some criticism from the left, some criticism from the right. I want to get to the details of it in a minute. It’s also getting some important praise from the middle. I want to break down some of the details in a minute.

But if the Baucus bill made it to your desk as is, would you sign it? Does it meet your goals?

OBAMA: Well, that’s such a hypothetical, since it won’t get there as is, that I’m not going to answer that question. But can I say that it does meet some broad goals that all the bills that have been introduced meet...

KING: Is it better than the others?

OBAMA: It provides health insurance to people who don’t have it at affordable prices. I’d like to make sure that we’ve got that affordability really buttoned down, because I think that’s one of the most important things is that if we’re offering people health insurance and we’re saying that people have to get health insurance if it’s affordable, we’ve got to make sure it’s affordable.

We’re helping people who have health insurance with the -- with knowing that, if they’re paying their premiums, they’re actually getting what they pay for, and that has been a huge problem, the people not able to get insurance because of pre-existing conditions, being surprised because some fine print says that they’ve got to pay huge out-of-pocket expenses or they hit a lifetime cap. All of those reforms are in there, and that’s really important.

Deficit neutrality, very important. Bending the cost curve, reducing health care inflation over time, part of the reason that’s so important, there was just a report that came out last week. Kaiser Family Foundation said, if you’ve got health insurance, last year, your premiums went up 5.5 percent, 5.5 percent. This is despite the fact that inflation was negative on everything else.

And that has been true almost every year. Premiums have doubled, gone up over 130 percent over the last 10 years. That’s the direction we’re heading. More and more people are finding that their employers are dropping their coverage, because it’s getting too expensive, so making sure that we’re controlling the long-term costs by improving the delivery systems, all of that is in the bill.

Now, there are a whole bunch of details that still have to get worked out. I suspect you’ll have one or two questions about them. But what I’ll say is, is that right now I’m pleased that, basically, we’ve got 80 percent agreement, we’ve got to really work on that next 20 percent over the last few weeks.

KING: One of the issues is how to pay for it. And one of the things Chairman Baucus does -- and you have endorsed, at least in concept -- is putting a fee, slapping a fee on these so-called “Cadillac” insurance plans. And the fee would go on the insurance company, not on the individual.

OBAMA: Exactly.

KING: But as you know, many of your allies, Senator Rockefeller, other Democrats, and many union presidents who have helped you in this fight, say, you know what? That insurance company will pass that on to the consumer, and they think it’s a backdoor way potentially of violating your promise during the campaign to not raise taxes, not hurt middle-class Americans, because that will be passed back on through the back door.

OBAMA: Keep in mind that the average insurance plan, I think, is about $13,000, a little -- maybe a little more than that, because of health care inflation. Even the health care plan that members of Congress get is, you know, in that range of the teens. And so people would be, for the most part, completely unaffected by this.

You do have some Cadillac plans -- I mean, you know, the CEOs of Goldman, I think, published what their plans were worth. They were worth $40,000 or something like that. That’s probably leading to...

KING: Would you make sure...

OBAMA: ... some waste...

KING: I hate to interrupt, but would you make sure that -- some of these unions have negotiated pretty good plans, too. Would you...

OBAMA: Oh, absolutely.

KING: ... make sure theirs are carved out, or should some of them be subject to that?

OBAMA: Well, this is a very important issue. I’ve been talking to the unions about it. I’ve been honest with them about it. What I’ve said is, is that the -- we want to make sure that guys are protected, guys and gals who have got a good benefit, that they are protected, but we also want to make sure that we’re using our health dollars wisely.

And I -- I do think that giving a disincentive to insurance companies to offer Cadillac plans that don’t make people healthier is part of the way that we’re going to bring down health care costs for everybody over the long term.

KING: It is not one of the central issues, but it has become one of the emotional flashpoints, and that is coverage of illegal immigrants. The Finance Committee plan is the only one in Congress right now that has specific language that says an illegal immigrant cannot go to one of these new health insurance exchanges. It requires documentation.

Would you sign a bill without that documentation? Or is that an adamant red line for you?

OBAMA: Let me be clear. I think that, if I’m not mistaken, almost all of the plans had specific language saying that illegal immigrants would not be covered. The question really was, was the enforcement mechanism strong enough?

Here’s what I’ve said, and I will repeat: I don’t think that illegal immigrants should be covered under this health care plan. There should be a verification mechanism in place. We do that for a whole range of existing social programs. And I think that’s a pretty straightforward principle that will be met.

KING: Mitch McConnell told a conservative group: “We’re winning the health care debate.” What do you think of that?

OBAMA: Well, you know, they -- they were saying they were winning during the election, too.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: Up next, we turn to global challenges, wrestling with sending more U.S. troops to Afghanistan, and a headline from former President Bill Clinton’s trip to North Korea. Much more with President Obama, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Afghanistan is now often referred to as Obama’s war and the strategy and decisions he faces in the coming weeks could well define his presidency. The American people have deep doubts about the mission and some of the president’s fellow Democrats see eerily parallels to Iraq in Afghanistan’s failure to build a more capable army and its government corruption and dysfunction. Defining the mission is perhaps the president’s biggest challenge.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KING: Let me move on to the world stage. You face a very tough decision in the weeks ahead about Afghanistan. Our Pentagon correspondent, Barbara Starr, says she has been told that General McChrystal has finished his report and his recommendation to you, but he has been told, “Don’t call us; we’ll call you. Hold it.”

Are you or someone working for you asking him to sit on that at the moment because of the dicey politics of this?

OBAMA: No, no, no, no. Let -- let me describe the process from start to where we are now. When we came in, I think everybody understood that our Afghanistan strategy was somewhat adrift, despite the extraordinary valor of the young women -- men and women who are -- who are fighting there.

So what we said was, let’s do a soup-to-nuts re-evaluation, focusing on what our original goal was, which was to get Al Qaida, the people who killed 3,000 Americans.

To the extent that our strategy in Afghanistan is serving that goal, then we’re on the right track. If it starts drifting away from that goal, then we may have a problem.

What I also said was, we’ve got an election coming up. I ordered 21,000 troops in to secure that election. But I said, after the election’s over, we’ve got to review it, because we’ve got to figure out, what kind of partner do we have in Afghanistan? Are they willing to make the commitment to build their capacity to secure their own country?

We are in the process of working through that strategy. The only thing I’ve said to my folks is, A, I want an unvarnished assessment, but, B, I don’t want to put the resource question before the strategy question. You know, the -- because there is a natural inclination to say, if I get more, then I can do more. But right now, the question is, the first question is, are we doing the right thing? Are we pursuing the right strategy?

And -- and once I have that clarity from the commanders on the ground, Secretary Gates, my national security adviser, Jim Jones, and others, when we have clarity on that, then the question is, OK, how do we resource it? And that’s -- what I will say to the American public is not going to be driven by the politics of the moment. It’s going to be driven by the fact that, A, my most important job is to keep us safe -- and Al Qaida’s still trying to do us harm -- but, B, every time I sign an order, you know, I’m answerable to the parents of those young men and women who I’m sending over there, and I want to make sure that it’s for the right reason.

KING: On that point, about a month before the election, you promised a re-focused national security strategy. And you said, quote, “We will kill bin Laden. We will crush Al Qaida.” As president, commander-in-chief, are you finding it’s harder to find him than you thought it might have been as a candidate?

OBAMA: Oh, I think as a candidate I knew I was -- it was going to be hard. I don’t doubt the interest and the desire of the previous administration to find him and kill him. But I do think that, if we have a overarching strategy that reminds us every day that that’s our focus, that we have a better chance of capturing and killing him and certainly keeping Al Qaida on the run than if we start drifting into a whole bunch of other missions that really aren’t related to what is our essential strategic problem and rationale for being there.

KING: It is a small number, but a growing number of Democrats in the Congress who say they want a timeline, they want a time limit on U.S. troop commitments in Afghanistan. You thought that was a good idea when it came to Iraq. Is it a good idea for Afghanistan?

OBAMA: You know, I think that what we have to do is get the right strategy, and then I think we’ve got to have some clear benchmarks, matrix of progress. That’s part of the reason why I said, even after six months, I wanted us to re-evaluate. You know...

(CROSSTALK)

KING: What would you say to the American who says you’ve been president for eight months, why are you still looking for a strategy?

OBAMA: Well, no, no, no. Keep in mind that we have a -- we put a strategy in place, clarified our goals, but what the election has shown, as well as changing circumstances in Pakistan, is that, you know, this is going to be a very difficult operation, and we’ve got to make sure that we’re constantly refining it to keep our focus on what our primary goals are.

KING: Do you think President Karzai stole the election?

OBAMA: You know, I don’t think that, you know, I’m going to make comments on the election until after everything has been certified. I think there is no doubt that there were reports of fraud out there that at first glance look pretty serious. They’re being investigated. They’re going through the -- the normal processes.

How much fraud took place and whether that had a substantial effect on the results of the election, I think that is something that we’re going to have to wait and see in the next few weeks.

KING: A couple other quick security questions, and then I want to bring it back home. You recently had lunch with President Clinton. He went to North Korea to help facilitate the release of those American journalists. What is the most interesting thing he told you about Kim Jong-il?

OBAMA: You know, I think President Clinton’s assessment was that he’s -- he’s pretty healthy and in control. And that’s important to know, because we don’t have a lot of interaction with the North Koreans. And, you know, President Clinton had a chance to see him close up and have conversations with him.

I won’t go into any more details than that. But there’s no doubt that this is somebody who, you know, I think for a while people thought was slipping away. He’s reasserted himself. It does appear that he’s concerned about -- he was more concerned about succession when he was -- succession when he was sick, maybe less so now that he’s well.

But our -- but our main focus on North Korea -- and I’m very -- actually, this is a success story so far, and that is that we have been able to hold together a coalition that includes the Chinese and the Russians to really apply some of the toughest sanctions we’ve seen, and it’s having an impact.

OBAMA: And I think that North Korea is saying to itself, you know, we can’t just bang our spoon on the table and somehow think that the world is going to react positively. We’ve got to start behaving responsibly. So hopefully, we’ll start seeing some progress on that front.

KING: Seven former directors of central intelligence have sent you a letter saying, please invoke your authority to stop the attorney general’s investigation of the Bush-era interrogation tactics. Will you do that?

OBAMA: You know, first of all, I respect all seven of them. And as importantly or more importantly, I have absolute respect and have reliance upon a robust CIA.

And I’ve said before, I want to look forward and not backwards on this issue. On the other hand, I’ve also said nobody is above the law. And I don’t want to start getting into the business of squelching, you know, investigations that are being conducted.

Now, it’s not a criminal investigation as yet, my understanding. I trust career prosecutors to be judicious. I’ve made clear both publicly and privately that I have no interest in witch hunts. But, ultimately, the law is the law, and we don’t go around sort of picking and choosing how we approach it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: Ahead, angry outbursts and disturbing images in recent weeks have some on the left suggesting racism motivates some Obama critics. Does the president see race as the issue? I’ll ask him next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: How much, if at all, does our first African-American president believe race motivates his critics? Back to our conversation in the Roosevelt Room.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KING: It’s a tough business, as you know. But in recent weeks, people have raised some pretty serious questions. The big rally in town, signs talking about “Afro-socialism,” swastikas with your name and your picture on them; “You lie” shouted at you during a nationally televised addressed. And former President Carter says he sees racism in some of this. Do you?

OBAMA: You know, as I’ve said in the past, you know, are there people out there who don’t like me because of race? I’m sure there are. That’s not the overriding issue here. I think there are people who are anti-government.

I think that there are -- there has been a longstanding debate in this country that is usually that much more fierce during times of transition or when presidents are trying to bring about big changes.

I mean, the things that were said about FDR are pretty similar to the things that were said about me, that he was a communist, he was a socialist. Things that were said about Ronald Reagan when he was trying to reverse some of the New Deal programs, you know, were -- were pretty vicious, as well.

The only thing I’d just hope is, is that people -- you know, I think we can have a strong disagreement, passionate disagreements about issues without -- without resorting to name-calling. We can maintain civility. We can give other people the benefit of the doubt that -- that they want what is best for this country.

KING: But the speaker says it reminds her of the hateful anti- gay language in San Francisco that led to deadly violence. Jim Clyburn, who’s the highest-ranking African-American in Congress, says he thinks people are trying to de-legitimize you. Did you see it as that worrisome?

OBAMA: You know, I’ve got to tell you that, as I said before, you know, yelling at politicians is as American as apple pie. I mean, that’s -- that’s in our DNA. We -- I said this in the speech to the joint session, that we have a long tradition of being skeptical of government.

I do think that it’s important for us, again, to remind ourselves that all of us are Americans who love this country. I think it’s important not to exaggerate or provide just rank misinformation about each other.

You know, I’m amused. I can’t tell you how many foreign leaders who are heads of center-right governments say to me, I don’t understand why people would call you socialist, in my country, you’d be considered a conservative.

You know, and the other thing I’ve got to say is, is that I think it’s important for the media -- you know, not to do any media-bashing here -- to recognize that right now, in this 24-hour news cycle, the easiest way to get on CNN or FOX or any of the other stations -- MSNBC -- is to just say something rude and outrageous.

If you’re civil, and polite, and you’re sensible, and you don’t exaggerate the -- the bad things about your opponent, and, you know, you might maybe get on one of the Sunday morning shows, but -- but you’re not going to -- you’re not going to be on the loop. And, you know, part of what I’d like to see is -- is all of us reward decency and civility in our political discourse. That doesn’t mean you can’t be passionate, and that doesn’t mean that you can’t speak your mind. But I think we can all sort of take a step back here and remind ourselves who we are as a people.

KING: I’m over my time. If I can, I want to ask you one question as a parent, not as a president. I was on a college campus this week and at a lab where they’re trying to make an H1N1 vaccine.

As a parent with two daughters in school, how are you dealing with this? And does the Obama family plan include a vaccine for you?

OBAMA: Well, the -- here’s the Obama family plan, is to call up my HHS secretary, Kathleen Sebelius , and my CDC director and just ask them, “What’s your recommendation?” And whatever they tell me to do, I will do.

My understanding, at this point, is that the high-risk populations are going to be first with the vaccine, and that means not only health care workers, but particularly children with underlying neurological vulnerabilities. And so we’ve got to make sure that those vaccines go to them first.

OBAMA: I’m assuming -- and pregnant women, by the way -- after that, I think you’re looking at kids, and so Malia and Sasha would fall into that category. I suspect that I may come fairly far down the line, so we’re not going to -- here’s what I guarantee you. We want to get vaccinated. We think it’s the right thing to do. We will stand in line like everybody else. And when folks say it’s our turn, that’s when we’ll get it.

KING: Mr. President, thank you for your time.

OBAMA: Thank you so much.

KING: Thank you.

OBAMA: Appreciated it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: Joining us now to offer his perspective on health care, Afghanistan, and more, is the top Republican in Congress, the Senate minority leader, Mitchell McConnell of Kentucky. Senator McConnell, let me ask you an open-ended question. You just listened to 20 minutes there of the president of the United States. What most jumped out at you?

MCCONNELL: Well, I certainly agree with the president and disagree with President Carter that this great national debate we’re having right now has anything whatsoever to do with race. The American people are concerned when they see the government running banks and insurance companies and car companies and now want to, in effect, take over almost 20 percent of our economy, our health care. These are the kinds of things about which there ought to be a very spirited debate and we’re in the process of having that here in this country.

KING: Well, I want you to listen, not to the president, but I want you to listen to your own voice. You spoke here in Washington on Friday to a conservative gathering about the health care debate and you voiced quiet confidence about the Republican position. Let’s listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCCONNELL: We’re seeing it today in the debate over health care. Ordinary Americans speaking their minds, dismissed and ridiculed by people in power. The reason they are doing this is clear, because we’re winning the argument.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Define “winning” for me. Is winning blocking the Democratic plans and ending this year without a health care reform bill reaching the president’s desk?

MCCONNELL: No, winning is stopping and starting over and getting it right. I don’t know anybody in my Republican conference in the Senate who’s in favor of doing nothing on health care. We obviously have a cost problem and we have an access problem.

But there’s a very big difference about whether or not it’s appropriate to have a major rewrite of about one sixth of our economy in the process. My members just don’t think that’s the right way to go. We want to fix the health care system, but we don’t want to do or have a $1 trillion over 10-year cut in Medicare, not to make Medicare more sustainable, but to start a new program for others.

We don’t think it’s a good idea to raise taxes on small businesses and on individuals in the heart of a recession. There are some serious differences about what ought to be done. KING: I saw your speech just before I went over to see the president. So I asked him about it. Listen to this exchange.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Mitch McConnell told the conservative group, we’re winning the health care debate. What do you think of that?

OBAMA: Well, you know, they were saying they were winning during the election too. (END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: A confident president there, saying he will get health care. He also said in an interview with Univision that’s airing this morning that he would love Republican votes, but I don’t count on them. I don’t count on them. Mr. Leader, let me ask you, if they go forward and they do this with all Democrats, what does that do to the environment down the road? Some Republicans have said well then don’t expect our cooperation on financial reform. Don’t expect our cooperation on Afghanistan. Is this one issue health care, or could it poison the well?

MCCONNELL: Look, it’s not about winning or losing, it’s not about the president, it’s about American health care and getting it right. And if they try to use this legislative loophole called reconciliation, what they’ll be doing, in effect, is jamming through a proposal to rewrite the economy with about 24 hours of debate.

Basically, a legislative loophole to do a massive rewrite of one sixth of our economy. I think that that will produce a very, very severe reaction among the American people, who are already, according to the Gallup poll, not in favor of the direction we’re taking on this very important issue. KING: Help me understand if there’s a gap between the audience in the sense that you say here, it’s not about winning or losing, but you were very clear to that conservative group, we’re winning the argument.

MCCONNELL: Well, by winning, the definition of winning is to stop and start over and do it right.

KING: Let me move you to the world stage. One of the things that struck me is when I asked the president about Afghanistan, our Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr says General McChrystal’s ready to send his recommendation, his report to the president, but he has been told just wait a little bit, they want to discuss some other things first. And the president said, he explained that and said well, we have this big strategy we have to work through, other questions first about the election, about the political situation, and I don’t want to put the resource question ahead of those other things. The president’s answer make sense to you on that?

MCCONNELL: Well, I mean the president enjoys very strong support among Republicans in the Senate for what he’s doing in Afghanistan. We are, however, disturbed by reports from your network, CNN, that he was, in effect, asking General McChrystal to delay his recommendation.

We think it is time to receive the recommendation. We would like to see General McChrystal and General Petraeus come up to Congress, like they did during the Iraq surge and give us the information about what they’re recommending.

We think the time for decision is now. As Senator McCain has pointed out, when you delay a decision like this, you, arguably, maybe, unnecessarily endanger the lives of our soldiers. If we need to change strategy, if we need to increase the troop strength there, I think the president will enjoy a lot of support among Senate Republicans.

KING: And do you believe, sir, that we need more troops in Afghanistan?

MCCONNELL: I think he ought to rely on the -- look, General Petraeus did a great job with the surge in Iraq. I think he knows what he’s doing. General McChrystal is a part of that. We have a lot of confidence in those two generals. I think the president does as well. I think he ought to follow his advice.

KING: Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell . As always sir, we appreciate your time here on “State of the Union.”

MCCONNELL: Thank you, John.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: And coming up, an exclusive interview with the Armed Service Committee chairman about his concerns with President Obama’s Afghanistan strategy. But straight ahead, a look at stories breaking this Sunday. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: I’m John King and this is “State of the Union.” Here are stories breaking this Sunday. Federal agents have arrested three men and the Justice Department says more arrests are possible as they probe an alleged plot to set off bombs in the United States. Najibullah Zazi and his father were taken into custody last night outside of Denver. Another man was arrested in Queens, New York. The three are charged with making false statements to investigators.

The death toll from a car bombing in Afghanistan has risen to 26. The explosion Thursday targeted a residential area in the Supreme Court in Kabul. The death included six Italian soldiers. Their flag- draped coffins were returned to Italy today.

Those are your top stories here on “State of the Union.”

KING: And don’t forget, coming up right at the top of the hour, 1 p.m. Eastern, “Fareed Zakaria: GPS.” This week, Fareed gets a rare sit-down with the Russian president, Dmitry Medvedev.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUSSIAN PRESIDENT DMITRY MEDVEDEV (THROUGH TRANSLATOR): Air defense issues should not be dealt with in isolation by two or three countries only. These questions are of global importance.

There are problems of Middle East; then there are problems of North Korea, and several other problems.

Therefore, this protection, this shield, should be of global importance, not boiled down to a few missiles which primarily would reach our territory, and it will not cover other distances.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: Stay tuned. “Fareed Zakaria: GPS,” coming up at the top of the hour, only here on CNN.

President Obama faces some tough choices on U.S. you troop levels in an Afghanistan. And one powerful Democratic senator, just back from the region, says he needs to see progress before he could support more troops.

Senator Carl Levin of Michigan, his advice to the president, the last word, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Twelve newsmakers, analysts and reporters, including the president of the United States, were out on the Sunday morning talk shows, but only one gets the last word.

That honor today goes to Democratic Senator Carl Levin of Michigan, who is the chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee.

Mr. Chairman, thanks for joining us.

A lot of talk about Afghanistan today, including from the president of the United States. One thing we have learned here at CNN is that General McChrystal, the commander of U.S. forces there, has his report and his recommendations ready. The administration wants some answers first about the election and the fraud -- alleged fraud and the political situation before it considers that report.

Is that acceptable to you?

If the general’s report is ready, should it be sent to Congress, to your committee, as well as to the White House?

LEVIN: Well, first, it ought to be sent up the chain of command, up to Petraeus, up to Mullen, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, up to the secretary of defense, Secretary Gates.

The president obviously wants advice from his commander, and it’s important that he get it. But it’s also important that he get advice from the secretary of defense and from the chairman of the Joint Chiefs and the chiefs themselves. So it’s perfectly appropriate.

And I think what’s going on here is that there is a number of questions which are being asked to General McChrystal about some of the assumptions which have been previously made in the strategy, including that there would be an election which would be a stabilizing influence instead of a destabilizing influence.

I’m sure there’s questions being made -- being asked about McChrystal, about the effect of a NATO response, about an increased -- in equipment, if they could get a much greater number of pieces of equipment to the Afghan army, what effect that might have on his recommendation.

So this is an ongoing request, I think, from McChrystal, for additional information on different kinds of assumptions which now are perhaps more true than they were when the original request with was made. But that is it a very normal kind of a conversation.

Everyone should want the benefit of General McChrystal’s comments and recommendations, but with two caveats, here.

Number one, he’s just in the chain of command, and there’s higher-ups. This is not a situation like General Petraeus in Iraq, when the president basically said, whatever the commander in Iraq wants, he’s going to get. This is not that situation.

That delegation of responsibility from the commander in chief to the commander in the field has not been made by the president, and I don’t think it should be made. He should want the recommendations of the higher-ups in the chain, as well as, obviously, the commander in the field.

KING: Well, then let me come in on that point. During the Iraq war, when Republicans ran the United States Senate for most of it, you were highly critical of what you thought was a lack of tough, honest, critical congressional oversight.

Has this administration promised you that, after that report is submitted, no matter how long it takes, that you will get a chance at General McChrystal, that he will come up and testify?

LEVIN: Well, they don’t have to promise. When we have a recommendation that is made to the president, and when the president makes his decision, we will, at that point, have General McChrystal and General Petraeus come up, and we will ask them questions about whether or not they agree with whatever the decision is.

But to inject them -- interject them now, in the middle of this kind of iterative conversation, where there’s a back-and-forth, asking, well, would your recommendation be different if, and then talk about what about the election; will that be a stable outcome; what about equipment -- we have not sent nearly enough equipment yet.

And I’ve been recommending to the president that, first of all, before any consideration is made of additional combat forces, that we get the Afghan army bigger, better equipped. We should not delay in that. We ought to do those things right away. We know those things are going to be part of any decision and any recommendation. And I think they’re overdue.

KING: Well, on that very point, I’ve moved over to our magic wall. Because I want to show our viewers a map of the region. You were just in the region and you’ve been there many times. But I also want to just show them some of the facts, here, some of the numbers: $223 billion or more allocated to Afghanistan since the beginning of the war nearly eight years ago; roughly 62,000 U.S. troops in Afghanistan now. Over $38 billion in aid has been spent there for reconstruction.

And yet you say, rightly so, Afghan security forces, the army, not up to speed as yet. The government has corruption issues. It is viewed as ineffective.

Many -- Senator, that sounds eerily familiar to the complaints after billions and billions and years were spent in Iraq, that -- where’s their own army; where’s their own security; and where’s their government?

LEVIN: Well, I’ll tell you where their army is. Their army is first in the hearts of their countrymen. The Afghan people like their army, respect their army. It’s the most favorite institution in the nation. And the Afghan people are very much opposed to the Taliban.

You put those two facts together, and if we can get the Afghan army much larger, much better equipped, and if we can also get a plan, finally, for co-opting or reintegrating those lower-level Taliban people, the way we did in Iraq -- if we can get that in motion, that hopefully will have an effect on how many additional troops we need to go to Afghanistan.

KING: I want you to listen to one of your colleagues, Senator John McCain , who has listened to your call on the president to wait before sending more troops. Senator McCain doesn’t like it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN, R-ARIZ.: Despite our successes in Iraq and the hard-won understanding we have gained about what it takes to defeat an insurgency, it seems we now regrettably must have the same debate again today with respect to Afghanistan.

In all due respect, Senator Levin, I’ve seen that movie before.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: I’ll give you a chance to fire back.

LEVIN: Sure. It’s a very different movie.

LEVIN: In Iraq, the reason that we succeeded finally in turning things around there so that there’s a better chance of success is that we finally were able to get the Sunni lower level folks who had been attacking us to switch sides. That’s what we need to do also in Afghanistan. That is a very big difference.

Secondly, there was a change in strategy finally in Iraq so that instead of trying to just attack the insurgents, we were protecting the population. That new strategy is now in place in Afghanistan. So this is very different movie from Iraq. They are two very different places.

The Iraq army did not have that much confidence on the part of the Iraq people. The Afghan army has huge confidence from the people of Afghanistan.

KING: Chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, Carl Levin .

Senator, thanks for your time today.

LEVIN: Thank you, John.

KING: Take care, sir.

Up next, the growing challenge of containing the H1N1 flu virus. We’ll take you to a campus on high alert, and to lab that hopes to win government approval for its version of an H1N1 vaccine.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: When a parent drops off a child at college, the usual worries, adjusting to dorm life, keeping the grades up. This fall, add in fear of the H1N1 flu virus and questions about how the government and schools, like the University of Connecticut, are preparing. Let’s take a look at some of the numbers.

Nearly 48,000 probable H1N1 cases in the United States so far in 2009. Just shy of 50,000 there. Nearly 300,000 H1N1 cases confirmed worldwide. One of the reasons why the government -- the United States government, has ordered -- not yet ready but has ordered 195 million doses of the new vaccine.

So in our “American Dispatch” this week, we went to Connecticut for two glimpses at the H1N1 challenge, a nervous campus and a high- tech lab that wants a role in the global fight against the virus. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KING (voice-over): The transition of summer to fall is one of New England’s great treats. Mid-September, usually a peaceful break before the worries of winter. Usually.

An early flu season and fears of a possible H1N1 flu pandemic has college campuses across the country on alert. So far so good is the early assessment at the University of Connecticut. One confirmed and two probable cases two weeks into the school year.

There are warnings, advice, and hand sanitizer everywhere, yet Director of Student Health Services Mike Kurland assumes his luck will eventually run out.

MIKE KURLAND, UCONN STUDENT HEALTH DIR.: We have approximately 20,000 students here in Storrs. The amount that we’ll see is the unknown. So we’re making preparations for whatever might happen, but we do anticipate an outbreak of H1N1 virus or influenza-like illness.

KING: Constant calls with state and federal officials. Constant preparation.

KURLAND: We purchased large numbers of supplies, 15,000 surgical masks for patients who might be infected, 28,000 doses of Advil, 28,000 doses of Tylenol, 10,000 fever thermometers, thousands of hand sanitizer bottles.

KING: The seasonal flu shot is available for free, but like everyone else, UConn is in a long line waiting for the H1N1 vaccine.

KURLAND: All we know is that distribution will begin in October at some point. We have put in for 20,000 doses. There will be a small amount initially and then each week more will come through.

KING (on camera): Is it frustrating at all that you have a ballpark date, but you don’t have a date?

KURLAND: It’s very frustrating.

KING (voice-over): In this lab, 45 miles from the UConn campus, tests on a seasonal flu vaccine awaiting federal government approval, and in this refrigerator, an H1N1 vaccine its makers hope is on the market soon.

CLIFTON MCPHERSON, PROTEIN SCIENCES QUALITY CONTROL DIR.: This is a sample of what was actually sent to Australia for the clinical trial. It’s just one of the remain -- the vials that was here for testing.

We’re going to be starting production again next week of H1N1 so we can ramp up very fast.

KING: Protein Sciences Quality Control Director Clifton McPherson says the process here is different than most influenza vaccines. Traditional flu shots are made using eggs infected with the virus. Protein Sciences splices protein from the virus into caterpillar cells.

MCPHERSON: So we never have to handle live flu virus. We use the insect cells basically as protein factories and then we purify that protein from the insect cells, and that purified protein is then our vaccine.

KING: CEO Dan Adams says the Australian trials are going extremely well, that he’s negotiating to sell H1N1 vaccines to Australia, China, South Korea, Mexico, and others.

DANIEL ADAMS, PROTEIN SCIENCES PRESIDENT: And so each one of those countries is free to approve our vaccine based on their own standards and...

KING: But in the United States...

ADAMS: We’re not a licensed manufacturer yet.

We definitely are plan B.

KING: Plan B, because unless the FDA granted Protein Sciences emergency authority to market here in the United States, it could be months or longer before Washington passes judgment on the safety and effectiveness of this particular H1N1 vaccine.

ADAMS: When you’re talking about the U.S. government and the FDA, you really don’t want to do any harm. That’s your first rule. So they’re looking at safety. We certainly would like to see them move faster. I think the HHS is in many ways overwhelmed by the task of evaluating the safety and effectiveness of various H1N1 vaccines.

Again, you don’t want to do harm.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: Fascinating lab there. Can’t say I was the best at science. We’ll be here again next Sunday and every Sunday at 9:00 a.m. Eastern for the first and last word in Sunday talk. If you missed any part of our program, tune in tonight 8:00 p.m. Eastern, we’ll replay my entire interview with President Obama.

Until then, I’m John King in Washington. Have a great Sunday. Take care now.

For our international viewers, “AFRICAN VOICES” is next, for everyone else, “FAREED ZAKARIA: GPS” starts right now.