CQ TODAY ONLINE NEWS
Aug. 6, 2009 – 12:03 a.m.
Health Debate Produces Angry Protests, Angry Retorts
By Jonathan Allen, CQ Staff
The Earth-scorching August firefight over health care has given rise to questions about the point at which stifling civil discussion damages the democratic process.
All across the country, conservative opponents are clamoring to disrupt town-hall meetings about the proposed overhaul of the nation’s health care system, using GOP-generated talking points to shout down Democratic congressmen who attempt to explain the plan.
The Constitution protects their right to speak freely, but Democrats say that they are limiting rather than promoting an open exchange of ideas.
Some experts on political organization say that despite the disruption of Democratic-run events — and divided public feelings on the health care overhaul — the shout-down strategy betrays an essential weakness on the Republican side, not a strength.
Nonetheless, the high-stakes battle has pressed allies of a president who built his narrative around his work as a community organizer into a campaign to delegitimize the organizers of the protests and their means of expression.
“Organized mobs across the country are intimidating lawmakers, disrupting events, and silencing discussions about the change our country needs,” one Obama campaign aide wrote in an e-mail to supporters in Michigan.
Hari Sevugan, a spokesman for the Democratic National Committee, says there is a difference between expressing a point of view and browbeating others — in this case congressmen and their constituents — who seek to express theirs.
“What’s legitimate dissent is something that provides for constructive dialogue in advancing the discussion on health insurance reform,” Sevugan said.
House Minority Leader John A. Boehner of Ohio says the protests reflect the true sentiments of voters.
“Democrats are in denial. Instead of acknowledging the widespread anger millions of Americans are feeling this summer toward Democrat-controlled Washington, Washington Democrats are trying to dismiss it as a fabrication,” Boehner said Wednesday. “That isn’t likely to sit well with Americans outside of Washington who are struggling and wondering when their elected leaders are going to wake up and change course.”
Democrats ignore voter dissatisfaction with the health care overhauls proposed on Capitol Hill at their own peril, Republicans say.
But the nature of the protests suggest the GOP has run out of options for fighting on substance, said David S. Meyer, a sociology professor at the University of California-Irvine who wrote The Politics of Protest: Social Movements in America.
“In historical context, it’s a tool of the weak,” Meyer said. He said it is noteworthy “that conservatives have to throw this kind of Hail Mary pass to stop health care reform” in a political system that favors that status quo.
Democratic organizers, from time to time, have engaged in protests that could hardly be called constructive. Following the 1989 enactment of a “catastrophic care” law that raised Medicare costs for seniors, Rep. Jan Schakowsky , then a young community organizer in Chicago, watched a group of angry seniors chase then-Ways and Means Committee Chairman Dan Rostenkowski, D-Ill., out of a senior center, calling him a coward and other names as he sought refuge in his car.
“They got around his car and were shouting rude things and banging, yes banging, on the car,” Schakowsky said.
The law was quickly repealed.
The episode remains the object lesson in what can happen when a lawmaker runs into angry constituents.
But Schakowsky says the dynamic was much different than today’s protests. In that case, Rostenkowski, who had met with a handful of leaders privately, was trying to duck out of the senior center on Milwaukee Avenue without meeting with the larger group of his constituents.
Though they were angry, the seniors were trying to express their opinions to their congressman, who was actively trying to avoid them.
“Their goal is not to have a conversation,” Schakowsky said of the contemporary town-hall protesters, who have been encouraged by conservative interest groups.
In the current health care debate, Democrats have portrayed the interest groups and the Republican Party as the source of the discontent, citing reports of involvement by former House Majority Leader Richard K. Armey’s FreedomWorks.
Republicans say there is a wave of Americans who oppose the Democratic-led House’s approach to health care.
“Here’s some free advice for the Democrats: When you are attacking the voters, you are losing,” National Republican Congressional Committee spokesman Ken Spain said in an e-mail to reporters Wednesday. “Democrats in Washington have become so desperate to climb their way out of message quicksand that they have been reduced to casting the voters and even members of their own party as extremists for having the audacity to oppose a government takeover of health care.”
Meyer says Republicans should be careful not to get too close to the protest movement lest they get hit with the backlash if demonstrators are out of control
“This is now going to be a potential problem for Republicans who have to take responsibility for the actions of the people they get excited and engaged about this type of politics,” Meyer said.
But he also said “irony is abundant” in the role-reversal for the community-organizer in chief. “It’s going to be interesting to see how the community organizer president is going to respond to communities organized by his political opponents.”
Comments
Part of the 1989 story that appears to have been lost in twenty years is that Jan Schakowsky wasn't a bystander at the protest. She was a hands-on orchestrator of the confrontation at the Copernicus Center.
The simple fact of the matter is that the GOP/health industry lobby/corporatocracy can't articulate any valid points, so they send people out there to put their fingers in their ears, make loud humming noises and say "I can't hear you, I can't hear you..." in a vain attempt to act like they care about the deficit over healthcare but Not a senseless war.
The important thing is that people understand: These are partisan hacks trying to drown out discussion.
All of the excellent health systems seem to have one thing in common, a well-organized preventative program. I think prevention system works as a 'levee' built against flood by the government, similarly, it also needs non-profit aid from the government on a large scale. This might offer us the clue of why all of the free states have public insurance policy in place. It won't be easy to draw some specific numbers on the economic effect of the 'levee' , but the flood measure without a stable 'levee' would be a house on the sand, as all of us agree. Thank You !
Why is it that DEMs can't handle protest and opposition. They always try and paint the GOP as themselves, racists, bigots, mobs. The nerve of Pelosi and Reid and Obama asking citizens to inform on those expressing opposite views. This action really reminds me of the SS and brown shirt days. It only took 200 days for Obama's true colors to show.
There is, of course, a mistaken assumption in the way this article was framed. Why should we believe that the people who run the out-of-power political minority want the democratic process undamaged? Democracy doesn't help their cause.
From July 20, 2009 Wall Street Journal: The reality is that the House health bill, which the Administration praised to the rafters, will force drastic changes in almost all insurance coverage, including the employer plans that currently work best. About 177 million people--or 62% of those under age 65--get insurance today through their jobs, and while rising costs are a problem, according to every survey most employees are happy with the coverage. A major reason for this relative success is a 1974 federal law known by the acronym Erisa, or the Employee Retirement Income Security Act. Erisa allows employers that self-insure--that is, those large enough to build their own risk pools and pay benefits directly--to offer uniform plans across state lines. This lets thousands of businesses avoid, for the most part, the costly federal and state regulations on covered treatments, pricing, rate setting and so on. It also gives them flexibility to design insurance to recruit and retain workers in a competitive labor market. Roughly 75% of employer-based coverage is governed by Erisa's "freedom of purchase" rules. Goodbye to all that. The House bill says that after a five-year grace period all Erisa insurance offerings will have to win government approval--both by the Department of Labor and a new "health choices commissioner" who will set federal standards for what is an acceptable health plan. This commissar--er, commissioner--can fine employers that don't comply and even has "suspension of enrollment" powers for plans that he or she has vetoed, until "satisfied that the basis for such determination has been corrected and is not likely to recur.
Why do you brand any person who does not agree with the "Health Bill" a conservative? This is a terrible bill as written and our congress was trying to push it through without adequate time for our legislators to examine it? This isn't rediculous it is outrageous and totally irresponsible. ANY CONGRESSMAN OR SENATOR WHO VOTES FOR THIS BILL SHOULD BE VOTED OUT OF OFFICE.
If you think that the smear tactics of the Republicans are not racially motivated I would be happy to refer you to the natchezdemocrat.com. If there are alot of comments for an article sooner or later they will be racial.
Dear Jonathan Allen: Your pretex is entirely false. NO ONE is telling me what to say or do regarding opposition to HR 3200. I have read most of it - certainly enough to form my opinion and opposition. Yes we need some reforms such as tort reform, caps on malpractice cases, insurance for those who are uninsured or have a pre-existing condition. To have the government having access to my banking information, conselling me on end of life issues and gaining control over my freedom is unacceptable. I have not personally seen any coordination from Republicans to stage events or shout downs. However it is quite evident President Obama almost always stacks the deck and stages every event he attends. Now the White House wants Americans to "SPY" on other Americans and tell them. What kind of BS is that. HR 3200 is making people angry because our representatives are not listening to us and now they cowardly are refusing to have town hall meeting and will be slinking off to hide somewhere during August. A month will not make any difference in how we feel. This is a bill that will lead America to financial disaster. So get out in the real world and find out what ordinary Americans think about this bill.
To begin with I'm offended by the writers biased assumption that the protestors are all conservative and all republican. As if somehow the republican party has engineered the voices and comments of these people and thus manufactured the controversy and their opinions. Clearly there are now an overwhelming number of americans (democrat, republican and independents) who have serious concerns over the plan to replace private healthcare with a government run plan. All of the polls now reflect this. These are not polls of conservatives or republicans but a broad mix of americans. The media needs to stop trying to influence this issue and start reporting on what's happening.
Your article states "using GOP-generated talking points to shout down Democratic congressmen who attempt to explain the plan". I wanted to let you know that I personally am vehemently against the health care plan. I am neither a Democrat nor Republican and resent your article which expounds both view points and refer to my anger as on this issue as representative of either party. This is a mistake that will become evident after next year's election.
Folks going to a meeting for information should not encounter an all out BRAWL! Those who disrupt a meeting should be arrested for disturbing the peace. Let demonstrators take it OUTSIDE!
This is real simple. Is the President, Congress, Senate and their families going to participate in a Nationalized, Socialized Public Health Care System?? If yes, then ok. If NO, which is the case, then if it's NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR THEM AND THEIR FAMILIES THEN IT'S MOST CERTAINLY NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME AND MINE. See, wasn't that easy.
Jonathan: Terrible dishonest and inaccurate article. The complaints are valid. Very little truth left in media reporting.
Look this can be made simple. Give us a tax voucher for healt insurance and change the laws so we can buy across state lines. Then the government is out of the insurance business. Congress is a law making body so go make laws that work for the people....I don't ask my doctor to do my taxes.
Analysis? Seriously? Jonathan Allen must be bucking for a job in the White House Press Office, with this turgid restatement of Democrat talking points masquerading as new content. The icing on the cake is using David Meyer, a far-left sociology professor out of UC Irvine, as a mouthpiece to characterize these efforts as a "tool of the weak" and a "Hail Mary pass on the part of Republicans". I'm shocked, shocked, that a guy who "is the coordinator of, and an active member of, the Social Movement/Social Justice Workgroup" (http://hypatia.ss.uci.edu/sociology/Meyer/smsj2001.spr.htm) at UC Irvine, would have a negative take on opposition to nanny state playing field leveling, Big Gov initiatives. Pathetic.
What is really interesting to watch here is the fact that all the liberals think that the GOP and insurance companies are sending out these people to "act angry " and even paying them to do so. You have heard the term "silent majority" before. Well, we are not silent anymore. The masses have awakened, thanks to Obama. The world will never be the same again. We the people, the ones you dismiss with such ease and disrespect, will now be heard. Your lies, your propaganda, and your new tv commercials have created more politacal activist in the last few days than acorn and SEIU have amassed over many years. Just watch my friends. Just wait. You have awakened us, we the people will be heard load and clear above the biased media, above the corruption. Just wait and see.
I am a registered Democrat who is quite upset about the proposed bill.No one said there didnt need to be reform but to pass something this important with the problems this bill has is crazy. I find it very distrubing that I am supposed to shut up and let this horrid legislation pass. If I disagree or someone from my state has the "balls" Rob Emmanuel will have his flunkies threaten to pull stimulus money from the state. Wake up folks what we have here is Chicago politics at its best. We have a socialist agenda being pushed, even though polls show the American public is against it. So since we can't sell it we are going to blame it on the Republicans. Get a grip. We will lose the Congress in 2010 if we don't start listening to the voters regardless of the party. Where are the moderates when you need them?
Obama clearly stated thta his first job as President was to stimulate the economy, hence our stimulus package. In order to stimulate a sagging economy their must be growth of small business. Past statistics show that small business has the largest number of jobs. If the present administration continues on its path with the Cap & Trade bill and Health Care Reform, small business will not be able to survive. How does that help stimulate the economy?
So, why is it that when protesters agree with Liberal agendas it's just the democratic process, but when someone disagrees it's disrupting the democratic process?
If lloks like the democrats can not stand the HEAT in the kitchen. They have cooked up a nasty can of worms called "health care reform" and when critisized call us a MOB!! They are getting just the same as given to "Bush" and can't take it!!!
This article talks about the Democratic process, "exchange of ideas" and civility. Democrats are upset that people aren't following "the process" and are being disruptive. Where was this exchange of ideas when the stimulus package was passed? Most Senators didn't have time to read the bill much less disguss it. Obama has taken Republicans out of the process, he has taken the American people out of the process, he has tried to cram bill after bill down our throats and completely ignored the Democratic process. I can't believe that this article and Democrats in general are standing up talking about a process that they have completely ignored for 6 months. These people aren't "operatives", they aren't "spies for the right", they angry that they have been left out, mad that Congress is ignoring them and their ideas and showing it in these meetings. Marginalizing, condemning, chastising these people only adds credence to the fact that Democrats aren't going to listen, aren't going to allow ideas to be exchanged and aren't going to "allow" the American people the opportunity to participate in this Democracy. It's a sad day for our country when average citizens have to yell to be heard. This isn't change I can believe in and isn't why I voted for Obama.
Jonathon, Did Axelrod write this for you or did you just use one of his handy talking points memos as an outline?
This is so sad it's funny. Today, when people show up at town halls and voice their disapproval to their legislators they are de-humanized by the leadership of this country and the media by being called mobs. In 2006, when organized demonstrators did not allow discussion about SS reform, they were just voicing their dissent. I have yet to hear a Democratic politician even mention the fact that they are hearing concerns about Obamacare from their constituents! That's not discussion. People are angry BECAUSE they feel they are not being heard, and that no one wants to hear what they are saying. They're angry BECAUSE they know that history has shown that every time politicians do something quickly, they're trying to hide something. They're angry because every country that has tried this kind of health care has lowered their level of care, while increasing availability and taxes. What are the Democrats afraid of? Information like the doctor who READ (imagine that) the legislation and said, "This is easy. This is Medicare." Do you want Medicare for yourself? It took years for Medicare Dr's to figure out that my grandmother's fainting spells needed a pacemaker. It was Medicare that did not have my father properly medicated after by-pass surgery which caused a stroke. Even this article is framed by the second paragraph from a left point of view:"conservative opponents are clamoring to disrupt". At least Bush (W) applauded the fact that in this country, people have the right to protest him. BTW, I think that reform is needed, but small steps are better than throwing the baby out with the water. How about start with TORT reform????
Why is this article framed by the Presidential talking points coming out of the White House? This is not a fair report. I am a concerned citizen, not funded by anybody. I work for a small business and I totally disagree with the health care "reform" as it is. The short-term memory loss of the DNC is quite alarming since nobody was better at stifling debate then the lefties who stormed speaking engagements to shout down speakers, force them off stage, put up Bush Derangement Syndrome signs, etc. The people in these town halls are not anywhere near where the professional protesters of the left were over the past several years. One only has to look at the polls to realize how unpopular the health care plan is and that is reflected in the town halls. This is an exercise in how out of touch elitist leaders can be.
Mr. Allen and Democrats alike should see that this is not an organized GOP effort. Democrats, Independents, and Republicans are individually appalled at the prospect of a government run health plan. I want my representatives in congress and, of course, Mr Obama to step back and recognize they are not pursuing the interests of the public if they support such a monetary and bureaucratic nightmare. We are attending these "listening" sessions to voice our opinion. I hope they are listening.
My God....such a one sided website..You Libs make me wanna puke...
We are fighting on the substance of this bill. For all the LAZY REPORTERS who don't read, here's some of what we are fighting... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ • Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure! • Page 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed! • Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process) • Page 42: The "Health Choices Commissioner" will decide health benefits for you. You will have no choice. None. • Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services. • Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard. • Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer. • Page 65: Taxpayers will subsidize all union retiree and community organizer health plans (read: SEIU, UAW and ACORN) • Page 72: All private healthcare plans must conform to government rules to participate in a Healthcare Exchange. • Page 84: All private healthcare plans must participate in the Healthcare Exchange (i.e., total government control of private plans) • Page 91: Government mandates linguistic infrastructure for services; translation: illegal aliens • Page 95: The Government will pay ACORN and Americorps to sign up individuals for Government-run Health Care plan. • Page 102: Those eligible for Medicaid will be automatically enrolled: you have no choice in the matter. • Page 124: No company can sue the government for price-fixing. No "judicial review" is permitted against the government monopoly. Put simply, private insurers will be crushed. • Page 127: The AMA sold doctors out: the government will set wages. • Page 145: An employer MUST auto-enroll employees into the government-run public plan. No alternatives. • Page 126: Employers MUST pay healthcare bills for part-time employees AND their families. • Page 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays an 8% tax on payroll • Page 150: Any employer with a payroll of $250K-400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays a 2 to 6% tax on payroll • Page 167: Any individual who doesn't' have acceptable healthcare (according to the government) will be taxed 2.5% of income. • Page 170: Any NON-RESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes (Americans will pay for them). • Page 195: Officers and employees of Government Healthcare Bureaucracy will have access to ALL American financial and personal records.
Partisan hacks? These are DEMOCRATS at these meetings. Why is it always ok for liberals to use violence and intimidation when they protest but if someone(even people of their own party) disagree with ANYTHING a liberal or a democrat does, that person or persons are called hacks or nazis or idiots or whatever they can come up with to destroy those they(liberals and democrats) disagree with. Why is it ok for liberals and democrats to lie, cheat, and steal without consequence but if a Republican or conservative takes one step off the straight and narrow, they must be ruined by the so-called "tolerant" among us? Why is it that liberals and democrats can be racists and bigots but non-liberals are ruined for one cross word. Even if that word or words might be true? BTW, this is a REPUBLIC not a democracy. (At least that is what it is supposed to be) And there is a HUGE difference between the two.
As a Democrat, I am tired of hearing about the Repulicans being the cause of everything negative. This bill is bad for people of both parties, but more importantly it is bad for Americans. I have a right to free speech and will exercise it in any manner i choose within the limits of existing law.
I think there needs to be extensive debate regarding health care reform. Health care reform and take over by our government are two different things. Our government is trying to cram things down our throats and hurry and pass legislation before anyone knows any details. I think this is un constitutional. The majority of the citizens of this country are against government take over. When they express their views, the government claims that people are organizing mob scenes against the government plans. Our government needs to wake up! The people don't want government messing with our health care. Expressing our views and our anger over what they are trying to pull over our eyes is not the equivalent of creating a mob scene. The ultimate goal of our government (at least this administration) is a total take over of our health care system. In other words. government run (rationed) health care. This is just the beginning. That's why there is an unprescedented number of people rallying against this administration. We just simply don't agree with their policies.
How can this man argue that the people against government run health care are the irrational passionate people? The entire basis of Obama's reform is a matter of him telling heart wrenching stories, and preaching empty ideology? People don't trust a monopoly, and people don't trust the government. So why is it logical to trust a government run monopoly with your health? Private corporations are much more accountable to the people because they require us to willfully pay money to stay exist. The government can raise taxes and take your money, like it or not. People argue that corporations are run for profit, what do you think the government would do with this? They openly say that this will make money for the government. Or it will plunge our country into deficit, so a bit of a lose lose situation. And someone actually brought up the iraq war in here, thats old hat, money wasted, get over it. TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR OWN HEALTH
If I brought my car in for a tune-up and the mechanic came out and told me I needed a whole, new engine, I know enough to know I was being flim-flammed. Health Care needs a tune-up - not a whole new engine! I wrote sincere, thoughtful letters to my Congressmen about my concerns and received canned, disingenuous replies. I'll be at my local meeting hoping MY voice will be heard. THEY ARE NOT LISTENING! People raise their voices when they think they aren't being heard. Frankly, these politicians have been insulting the very people for whom they work! That will probably backfire on them next time they run for office.
I think your second paragraph, which is a premise of the piece and I have shown below, is just plain wrong on several counts. First, I don't believe all opponents are conservative. Take the registered Dem shouting down Steny Hoyer. This is a much broader opposition that goes beyond politics. Second, I don't believe their motive is to disrupt town-hall meetings. They are concerned over an out of control congress and are frustrated that their reps seem to have a tin ear and a loose wallet with their money. Third, I don't believe for one second that any of the people I have seen in the coverage have been given or even have access to GOP talking points. That's just ridiculous on the face of it. Finally, I don't believe the Congressman are trying to explain anything because a) they haven't read the bill and b) the kind of spending people are talking about is indefensible. second paragraph from story: All across the country, conservative opponents are clamoring to disrupt town-hall meetings about the proposed overhaul of the nation's health care system, using GOP-generated talking points to shout down Democratic congressmen who attempt to explain the plan.
Conservatives or Republicans are not, I repeat, are not the cause that Americans are speaking up. Americans do not want Government to "dictate" on such delicate issue as OUR HEALTH. Go back to the tables, read the bill and work, not just TALK and impose deadlines!!!
One thing I am learning about Democrats is that if they are out front complaining about something the right is doing, it's because they are doing it themselves and trying to divert attention. This piece could actually be used in a classroom as a classic example of left-wing journalistic bias. First you write the piece to appear even-handed by supposedly presenting both sides. Seconed you bring in tainted witnesses but introduce them as "experts" even though they have a history of left-leaning views. Third you repeat left-wing talking points as facts while callling opposition "talking points' Fourth you say the opposition "has no ideas" This of course tends to be the most patronizing and deceitful of all since The GOP has many ideas but the press refuses to cover it. Finally, you marginalize protestors whom you usually revere, but in order to sound fair you bring up some obscure incident were the "left" was supposedly wrong instead of brining up Code Pink, Michael Moore or Cindy Sheehan who decitfully bought a house near Bush in Texas but lost her useful idiot status when she ran against Nancy Pelosi.
This article is full of falsehoods. These citizen-organized protests began as modern-day Tea Parties, as a response to blatant government takeover of segments of the private sector, a burgeoning deficit, and out-of-control, wasteful spending. They never were linked to a particular political party, much less organized by one. Both major parties are perpetrating this stuff! What you are seeing in these town halls is *freedom in action*! This, people, is what the Constitution guarantees! Freedom of assembly; freedom of speech; access to our elected representatives! And that's the last thing control-freak statists ever want to see. That's why you are seeing lies and distortion all over the news. God forbid people should be given a voice in how they are governed. Let's just rush this stuff through without allowing anyone to read it or debate its merits. Let's just hand Congress another blank check so they can fritter away the future of coming generations. Shocking, how Americans don't want your supposed largesse that has a huge bill to pay hidden behind it. This article is going to have the opposite effect the author intends...it's going to fuel the determination of honest Americans to bring their own oversight to bear on Congress. Get ready for 2010!
OOOO........hurts to be shouted down. I remember a lot of people that whenever said something negative about then presidental canidate Obama they would get shouted, blogged, email bombed to keep them quite.
The real debate that needs to be going on is . How does the Republican party survive when it's base is comprised of a bunch of tea party rednecks that get all their news and information from Sean Hannity and Rush LImbaugh. All they can do is scream. Debate is not in their limited vocabulary.
just another bias outlook from liberals that any oppose are mobb crazy protesters with no brain to think with that we cannot live with out them thinking for us all of those degree hanging on the wall dont mean crap with out common sense and think that there is not any of the 547 HOUSE OF REP OR SENATORS that would be corrupt or crooked dealing with our money listen to me protect our borders keep our national defense up and stay out of our business and lives
So let me get this straight, when people protest Republican ideas it is patriotism. When people protest Liberal programs they are trouble makers. The right to free speech is protected for ALL Americans, and the Dems better think twice about stifling it as they won't be in power much longer. This healthcare program is nothing more than another fiscally irresponsible entitlement focusing on limiting choice and spending us into bankruptcy. Hospitals are already stressed as the government run Medicare forces hospitals to accept low reimbursements, excessive red tape, and dictates care that can be prescribed. An expansion of this will destroy the system and lead to long waits for much needed procedures. Sorry, it won't pass as America is way to smart for this.
The 'GOP/health industry lobby/corporatocracy ' is not sending out its people to these events. we are citizens of the United States and we are tired of both parties BS. we have been doing this long before Bush left office. Quit blaming them like they have something to do with us voicing our opinions. they are just as bad as the democrats.
I think FED--SLAPUP just proved my point.
If you freaking geniuses have such a coherent and valid argument against the reform...then why dont you HOLD YOUR OWN DAMN MEETINGS instead of your feeble attempts at stifling the opposing POV with your desperate and juvenile shout-down tactics. All this denial of the facts on who's really behind these so-called "protests" is hilarious. Obama is not perfect, but he harnessed a HIGHER NUMBER of Americans (than McCain did) who wanted to get involved for change and used his organizing skills to get voters out in record numbers. It's a fact that the GOP was defeated as a result of all this, and are now attempting to use similar methods in pursuit of their own agenda. Try signing up for email lists/social networks on both sides of the issue and take a look at the facts. In doing so, you'll see which side wants to create a dialogue and which side wants to disrupt it. All you SHEEP who probably wish those voters stayed home as they did in the past, have no real interest in the true democratic process. No one is saying you have to be a "silent minority", but you might want to "step your game up". That shout-down stuff might have worked back in grade school on the playground, but the stakes are a little higher now than a spot on the swing set. It might behoove some of those "leaders" of yours to stop chasing their college boy interns around for a while and get to work.
It is both sad and incredible that a nation born of dissent and spirited debate is now controlled by a President -- and his hypocritical minions, including MSNBC -- not willing to tolerate opposing points of view. On the other hand, it is hardly surprising that a White House which hates the Second Amendment would also quickly brush aside the First Amendment. The tactics of the Obama team show just how close we might be to a totalitarian state in which all of us will soon have "freedom" in word only. This is how it began in 1930s Germany ... pray it doesn't happen here.
As the author of this article, I'm pleased to see it has sparked a healthy discussion. I'd like to make one thing clear, though, as I'm concerned my quoting of other people has been misconstrued to represent my own beliefs about town-hall protesters and the health care debate in general. The terms "mobs" and "organized mobs" are the descriptions used by Democratic officials, not me. The terminology is strong and evokes thoughtless, violent, marauding throngs who engaged in atrocities such as lynchings in the American South and pogroms in Eastern and Central Europe. I have seen nothing that would begin to parallel those dark forms of human intimidation. One other note on language: I used the term "conservative" to describe opponents not because I believe the opponents are all Republicans but precisely because I understand they represent both political parties and no political party. In the strictest sense of the word, I believe conservative applies to critics of the health care bill because they generally would prefer to conserve elements of the existing health care system than revolutionize it in the various manners suggested by proponents of the versions of HR 3200 and the Senate HELP Committee's bill. I also want to make my e-mail address available because I know some people who have tried to write to me today have been frustrated in that effort. I publish it on my blog fairly frequently, and I welcome your use of it if you want to contact me privately. Thanks to all who have commented on the story. Jon
E-mail address: jallen@cq.com.
What a loaded piece of garbage reporting. It figures since it is on MSNBC. The print media had no problem with Code Pink doing much worse when they lost a prop vote in California. Code Pink actually stalked and harassed people that made contributions to the other side, and still the media had no problem with it. Now the media has problems with people that voice their disapproval with some of the Democrats policies and attempts at legislature. We saw what happened when the Tea Party's broke out across the country. The media actually blew off people trying to exercise their constitutional right and voice their opinion against the policies of the Obama administration. When did the media decide that they know better then the average Joe?Why do they get PO'ed when someone critisizes the one they chose to be president? What happened to the media that is supposed to report the news, not spin it, put their slant on it, or decide if they agree with it because they don't like what the ones making the news are saying? A lot of average Joe's are upset right now with Congress. They see their elected officials acting against the will of the people that elected them. The voting public has the right to let our elected officials know how they feel, and sometimes they have the right to be belligerent, rude , and obnoxious in the attempts to be heard. This is something the media is supposed to celebrate, people actually exercising their constitutional rights. Instead we have a media which critisizes because the voices are shouting against the media's darlings.
I don't trust Obama or the Congress to act in my interest on health-care reform. I never trust the government whenever they say "Comprehensive" anything. We all new we could not trust them about comprehensive immigration reform--we would get all of the "Amnesty" and none of the "Border Enforcement". The same sort of thing would happen with this comprehensive health-care reform--we would get all of the pain and none of the gain. The folks that are out there protesting this health-care reform debacle are just like the real folks that were giving the congress hell over immigration reform. It is real people, really engaged, and really angry at their government.
I don't trust Obama or the Congress to act in my interest on health-care reform. I never trust the government whenever they say "Comprehensive" anything. We all new we could not trust them about comprehensive immigration reform--we would get all of the "Amnesty" and none of the "Border Enforcement". The same sort of thing would happen with this comprehensive health-care reform--we would get all of the pain and none of the gain. The folks that are out there protesting this health-care reform debacle are just like the real folks that were giving the congress hell over immigration reform. It is real people, really engaged, and really angry at their government.
Why is the part about groups like FreedomWorks funding this opposition buried way on the 2nd page? Shouldn't that be the headline? It's not the "Health Debate" that's producing angry protests ... it's the HEALTH INSURANCE COMPANIES & THEIR LOBBYISTS who are producing angry protests. It's not a matter of this being a GOP- or DEM-organized effort. It's the corporations, people. They are protecting their own interests and are using these poor fools, disguised as "real Americans" to do it. Well, the press didn't get the true story behind those protestors during the 2000 Florida Recount (they WERE GOP-led) -- why should we expect anything more from them this time around. That requires .... asking questions.
President Obama may fail over Health care, because the Democrat leadership of Sen Harry Reid, Speaker Pelosi added these services free-of-charge to the 20 million plus illegal immigrants and their families. The cost is trillions of dollars according to Robert Rector, top analyst of the Heritage Foundation. All these money will be further accentuated by the cornucopia of other welfare entitlements, that will keep attracting millions more illegal aliens. These mandatory federal laws are enforced on taxpayers by the IRS, which has drained state, county treasuries for absolute decades. America cannot have a government run health care system, until restrictions are placed on anybody who are unable to prove their citizenship status or residency. Like Europe, America has been invaded by mass hordes of legal and illegal immigrants, with consequences of a suffering government health care system.
I can't swear some group somewhere didnt' coordinate members to go to a town hall. Sure, a LOT of groups opposed to the health proposal posted addresses of town halls. However, you had to already be MOTIVATED against the proposal to search and find them. This is real anger. You can't say you are adding coverage for tens of millions of more poeple and pay for most of it with cuts from an already insolvent medicare without raising AND ADDRESSING the question of what does that mean for medicare service? Rationing is the common answer, and an answer adopted by experts in their writings -- the very experts consulted by the White House for developing this plan. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124692973435303415.html Further, statements that you 'can keep your plan' are so disingenuous as to be outright dishonest and anyone not a child can see through it. Grandfathered plans will be forbidden to take new members, all plans expire, people leave jobs and lose specific plans, and employers can change plans without any say by the employee. At that point, there will be NONE but 'approved plans.' THAT is why Obama's polls are dropping and support for the bill as well. This will hit every single person, and he is being dishonest. As for the proposal, trying to find coverage for preexisting conditions is a worthy goal, but that should be dealt with separately. 15% of the people are being focussed on at the expense of the other 85%, and that is truly the tail wagging the dog.
Democrats and Republicans are the left and right asscheeks of the same political donkey. Bush II got us into Gulf II; Clinton stole all the money out of the Social Security Trust (it's all just full of IOUs now); Bush I got us into Gulf I; Reagan had Iran-Contra; Carter had the Embassy hostages; Ford was a dumbass who pardoned Nixon; Nixon had Watergate; LBJ bankrupted the country by going into Vietnam; JFK had the Bay of Pigs and Missile Crisis; Dwight D. had the Korean War; Truman is only man in earth's history to use WMDs (you do realize that nukes qualify as WMDs, right?); FDR interned millions of Japanese-American citizens (but interestingly enough, not German-American or Italian-American) in camps for having committed the egregious crime of having Japanese ancestry; Hoover signed Smoot-Hawley, prolonging the Great Depression; Wilson got us into WWI; Lincoln was a raging racist who believed that black people should be repatriated to Africa (look it up - I didn't believe it either at first); and even my favorite, Thomas Jefferson, kept slaves and engaged in a number of actions that violated his principle of strict-constructionism (namely, the Louisiana Purchase). If you folks can't get past the fact that Democraps and Republicants both serve the same master (just look up their biggest campaign contributors), and continue to argue with each other, then The Powers That Be have accomplished their mission. They've distracted you into hating each other, when what we should be doing is uniting against politicians. "People get exactly the government they deserve."
There is no conspiracy of the GOP or insurance companies or corps., these are just people who don't want the govt. to ration health care. Yes, read the bill, it is rationing health care. They did a fine job screwing up social security, and wow did they make a mess of medicare. Anyone with common sense, democrat or republican, can see they will screw this up too. As far as I am concerned this is an attempted coup of the health care industry and a violation of human rights to life and liberty, the supreme law of the land says this is illegal. Nor does the supreme law of the land in the US allow genocide to be carried out on populations of the US such as the elderly, those deemed "terminally ill", or those with special needs by restricting care to these individuals and coersion of doctors to deny further care of such individuals. Get your head out of the sand and read the bill for what it is. Then leave it to the states to compete in developing the best health care, not single payer care from the fed govt. In our state medicaid is 75% of our budget . What happened to the hospitals and clinics run by charities? They were squashed by big govt. Those of you who want the fed govt to act as your surrogate parent, please move away to some country that has socialized medicine and leave our system, which is still the best in the world, to We the People to fix.
Obama, being a socialist, meaning he believes only in top-down social organization, is against this kind of community organization because he cannot conceive of a self-organizing citizenry. Thinking that citizens cannot possibly organize themselves without an organizer, he thinks we are all being controlled by some interest group or the GOP. Of course, if he believe in bottom-up self-organization in society, he wouldn't be a socialist at all. He couldn't be. The Democrats' reaction to the spontaneously ordering protests, accusing them of being top-down organized movements, belies their world views completely.
You liberals are truly the real conspiracy theorists. Do you honestly believe there is some shadowy GOP-run leadership that is planning these mainly spontaneous and locally-organized protests? This could be the beginning of something much bigger if those who lead both houses, the Executive and Judicial Branches don't realize that the people are disgusted at the way we are being ignored and robbed to pay liberal special interests. If anyone was truly interested in the truth, they would support Ron Paul and his struggle to hold the Government accountable for the way it is destroying our country. The members of the revolt you see brewing are mainly middle-class white suburbanites who see their future as in great peril. Our jobs are gone, our money is on the point of becoming worthless, and our government has spent our future into ruinous debt, and now is threatening to do irreparable harm to the fabric of our country, the one thing we still have that is the envy of the world - our health care system. If the healthcare system was left alone initially, there wouldn't be the problems we have today, which have come about directly by government meddling. Both sides of this debate are refusing to really discuss the issue, but rather hide in non-speak. I am with Dagny Taggart; it may be time to leave the US in search of John Galt.
According to the scoring of CBO on the prevention & wellness program, all fitness centers around the world should close down immediately. Immune System & Levee System : All of the excellent health systems seem to have one thing in common, a well-organized, systematic preventative program. I think a prevention system works as a 'levee' built against flood by the government, similarly, it also needs non-profit investments from the government 'on a large scale'. This might offer us the clue of why all of the free states have public insurance policy in place. It won't be easy to draw some specific numbers on the economic effect of the 'levee' , but the flood measure lacking a stable 'levee' would be a house on sand, as the too high level of 'preventable' chronic diseases in America shows. At present, about 75 percent of each health dollar goes to treating chronic conditions. When tests reveal patients are at risk of a chronic disease, physicians have no benefit to help them make necessary changes to stay healthy. Rather, the system today is designed around treating patients once they become sick. If current health care system could shift a small percentage of total spending into programs that help prevent people from getting sick in the first place, it would dramatically reduce the overall cost of care. Thankfully, the health care reform bill currently before Congress makes several key investments in preventive care, and those pieces of the PUBLIC OPTION must be maintained. "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.", said Benjamin Franklin , and 'Early Detection' goes beyond monetary value as we see the recent case. As far as I'm concerned, the congress affected by the special interests has impeded the budget request for prevention program in Medicare & Medicaid. Thank You !
"Their goal is not to have a conversation," Well, anyone at least half-familiar with the history of 20th century does not care about having conversations with socialists of whatever color. After socialists killed 300 million people in the previous century, the only proper way of dealing with socialists is with the aid of rope and lampposts. Enough is enough.
Yes, people, the anger is real. It started last summer when gas prices went up to over $4/gallon. It continued when Bush announced he needed $700B RIGHT NOW to save the world economy. It continued over the winter as the new administration pushed more bailouts, cap/trade, more bailouts to fix the economy RIGHT NOW. For some reason, there seems to be a full court press on this health care issue which the people need RIGHT NOW. IF some of the points are correct: end of life counseling, restrictions on coverage, etc, this will push people over the edge. If they know or suspect or perceive that, after a certain age, they will no longer get care, that's enough to cause panic. Remember most of these folks seem to be an aging baby boomer crowd. RIGHT NOW, millions DO have a health plan. They're getting scared they might lose it. Especially since the other "emergency" spending seems to have no effect. The obama person didn't start the economic problems, they've been building through years of politics on both sides. But he's the guy NOW when it's all falling apart. The dems at jabba.gov control the congress and by pushing this issue, they may be starting a chain of events that will have repercussions they'll regret. Or is that the intent??
this all has been coming for years selfish self centered americans not caring about their neighbour not helping others taking vacations while ignoring single moms everything that is coming can be summed up in this HE WHO CLOSES his ears to the cry of the poor will himself cry out and not be heard AMERICA IS BROKE TOTALLY BROKE the bilderburg group wants a one world currency and they are bankrupting the nation on purpose with the federal reserve and idiots that run the FAKE GOVERNEMENT wake up goodnewsaboutgod.com
This comment explains it all: ""What's legitimate dissent is something that provides for constructive dialogue in advancing the discussion on health insurance reform," Sevugan said." This is the hegelian dialectic we MUST ALL accept and live under: that no dissent IS legitimate, the "discussion" MUST be ADVANCED on health insurance reform". Always advance the dialectic, surely "dialogue" and discuss, the compromise always giving a little more to the cause requiring "advancement" (thesis vs antithesis= new synthesis). There can be no opting out, EVERYONE has to join the herd, be part of the hive, subsume their individual selves for "the good of all" and accept Obamacare in the name of the common good. The only healthcare crisis is the one the government has created through entitlements and mandates. Now they want total control of our lives through "healthcare". The mental health of people who are such control freaks must surely be questioned.
i believe the people have good reason to be upset. in the past decade (at least) the government has pursued polices, passed laws, and gone to wars despite the people's wishes. No one wanted a perpetual war(s) in the middle east . No one wanted the bailouts. No one wants government run healthcare. There is an underlying frustration that is growing because our government is not listening to us. It's surprising to me that obama and gang are as shocked as they are at the reactions across the country... of course these people are pissed, it seems we have no respect from our ruling class anymore. To them we are merely sheep who do not have the ability to live and survive on our own. No matter what they say to sell this reform... it is a plan to construct a socialist health care system. How is some politician in D.C. supposed to know what's best for a patient in Washington state? They can't and this is one fallacy of central planning. i dare not say to look at our atrocious education system as a model for what will come. I'm not even sure how this will be paid for... actually, i do know how it will be paid for... at least we have representation. The people (yes, they are people, not gods) in power are pursuing that which they believe is how a good society should be, not taking into account that people are perfectly fine when left alone. With the fed government already not understanding the needs of patients who require unorthodox treatment and the simple fact that all governments love to play favorites, i cannot see how any of this is a good idea. it's all about control and the bigger this gets, the harder it's going to fall. and just looking at history shows us that the fall happens every time.
I dont want government middlemen. There are Free Market solutions to the health care problem that could eliminate the governments involvement already. Imagine your grandmother not getting treatment, or having a gov. official talking to her about 'end of life'. That is absolutely un-American. Let the free market work and get big brother out.
The long and short of it is, our current system of health care and insurance is horribly broken, and the administration's proposal is to make it far worse. I'm all for reform, and I mean REFORM, not the completion of the government takeover of health care that's been gradually happening since world war two. First step: deregulate insurance. What we have today is a regulatory scheme written by the lobbyists and the lawyers of the largest insurance companies, and designed to protect them from competition. Second step: deregulate the supply of health care providers. Today, the AMA doesn't merely set standards that someone must meet to obtain a medical license, they also LIMIT the number of people who can apply for those licenses. Third step: end the FDA's power to decide what treatments we're allowed to use. they kill thousands of people every year by keeping drugs off the market that are known to be saving lives in other countries. What we have today is massive interference by government in the market for health care services. We're not going to solve these problems by letting the government take over health care altogether. -jcr
The "free market" system is lethal when applied to health care. A few well-insured people don't want to lose their luxury while the rest of the country loses all access to health care. Talk about rationing--that's EXACTLY the way it works now. "Denial of services" = rationing. Makes a few people rich, kills a bunch others. I used to have fabulous health insurance till the greedy HMO's took over. I've watched friends & family members lose theirs too. tried paying for it myself, it would take 50% of my salary with a ridiculous deductible. This doesn't work, folks. As for a socialist takeover of health care--these are the SAME ARGUMENTS used against Social Security and Medicare--and my guess is all you folks are looking forward to the check and the medical handout when your time comes. But both programs were fought against tooth and nail by monied & conservative interests way back in the day. I travel overseas a lot and have from time to time fallen ill. I have received EXCELLENT healthcare in Europe, Asia, and Latin America and NOT ONCE was I asked "howya gonna pay?" No questions asked. Try it. You'll like it. Or are you just too scared of . . . change? Grow up, people. It's okay for the gov't to guarantee you won't die in the street just cuz you were unlucky enough to get sick. I say--give up your Social Security and Medicare, those damn socialist programs sucking us dry. And then we'll talk. (Or scream and shout, whichever.)
There are about 30 red states. The governers and state legislatures could stop this federal power grab if all 30 of the red states just exercised their 10 amendment powers and rejected the federal intrusion. New Constitutional amendments could also cut off these federal thugs at the knees. This is final check the States have against the mob that has taken over. This is called "States Rights" and his been on life support ever since Lincoln invaded the Confederacy to stop them from withholding taxes from his Blue Coat government in the North. Most of what you "know" about Lincoln and his fight against slavery is as mythical as Santa and the Easter Bunny.
Those of us who oppose the proposed changes to the health care system are not hired or from any one group. Many who oppose it are not GOP members but are independents, liberals, or libertarians etc. I for one have no insurance because I am poor. Yes, we need changes in the system -a radical one - but that change ought to be to get government completely out of health care and insurance and medicine, not dominate it. This issue has awakened many people who did not realize how socialized our society and government is becoming. Now that they are awakening, they are looking for answers and want some stake in the dialogue- hence they show up at town hall meetings. This is not some "astroturf" campaign nor is it some racially motivated attack. You can be sure that any republican who supports any part of the health care proposals will have a lot of angry and disenchanted republicans and others hounding him for answers too.
There is no denying that health care must be reformed, but not taken over by the government. Does anyone know of any government-run entity that is NOT broken? The ridiculous cash-for-clunkers debacle is but one example. The govt only knows how to throw money out there, but without any thought of how to run the program. Wake up, people, THIS IS YOUR LAST CHANCE to save whatever freedoms you have left!! Once the govt has your health in its hands, it's got you by the #&*^s!!
Golly, I wonder which side of the issue Professor Meyer comes down on? I would like to see the list of Federal programs he thinks are bad for the taxpayers. Futhermore, I wonder if all professors just loathe the Constitution these days, particularly the 10th Amendment? To ask is to answer I suppose.
I'm a Dem and totally opposed to this healthcare reform bill. Now I'm supposedly a paid hack of the repubs? That's insulting!
It has been mentioned frequently that the pushing of multiple bills and policies in this administration is a technique to get the current agendas of the the administration through.No congress or senate have had to work so hard since possibly FDR's presidency. As a conservative I am only asking that we deal with one thing at a time and get it right.Really I think that in all truth that is what the House wants also.
Keep on painting average concerned citizens as kooks and stooges. You'll do more for the Republican party than GWBush did for the Democrats.
Obama's gonna kill Grandma? See: http://notionscapital.wordpress.com/2009/08/07/obama-wants-to-kill-your-grandma/
We already have a working prototype of the pending health care system - it is called the VA. You wait weeks for an appointment, and when you finally get one, care and treatment are substandard. At the Atlanta VA facility they don't even plan for adequate parking. Patients sit in their cars along the street at the curb with their engines idling. They wait until a car leaves the parking deck so they can park in an empty space. If this health care bill passes, we will all just have the VA on a massive scale. And we will all need to fill up our gas tanks before we leave home for a medical appointment so we don't run out of gas waiting for a place to park.
Patent laws are a government created monopoly that eliminate free market competition among drug manufacturers. Everything is not on the table until patent laws are part of the discussion.
I am a 65 year old grandmother who lives on a small farm with a few horses, that I may lose due to the stock market crash. I am on Medicare and have a supplement from my husband's workplace. I am happy with my coverage. My medication is very costly but is paid for by my insurance. I'm sure I would not be "cost effective" on Obamacare." I have not been contacted in any way by anyone to protest this health bill. I have read it however. I do not see why every senior over 65 must receive "end of Life" counseling "every 5 years"??? It seems to me once is enough. Kind of pushy, huh? Like pushing more than living wills........and, pardon me, but it DOES cover abortions. An amendment was brought up in congress to bar them, voted for and passed with the agreement to be voted on again, then voted on again and voted down. There IS a panel who will decide who gets treatment and who doesn't and elderly, the disabled, the critically ill, and babies will receive minimal care. THESE ISSUES ARE IN THE BILL. I READ IT. YOU READ IT TOO!!! Don't let Obama's Chicago type thugs stop you folks. Let them call us angry mobs, unamerican, or crazies. We know what we are. Concerned Americans who want our America back. We don't want socialized medicene, we don't want socialism or Marxism, we don't want big government, we don't want secularism (atheism), we want the American values and principles that made this country great! Tell your reps that if they vote for this travesty of a bill, not only will you vote against them, you will work against them vigorously and earnestly. There are a lot of us seniors. Together we can change things. Let's do it.
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